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Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
Posted: February 08 2018 at 09:02
Hi,
This blues discussion is scary ... and I can only appreciate the time and effort that Dark Elf took in putting it together to show something.
There is one other small detail ... and I would like to add (and suggest DE see it) the DVD on Tom Dowd and the fact that after WW2, he started recording a lot of artists and many of them were black and into the blues and jazz. His comment on the video is that the music studios owned all the music publishing and recording studios and they only released the material that they could sell for their "stars" ... and thus, a sectional group, as most of these "blues" and "blacks" were across the country, would not exactly be known by anyone else, and could easily be taken away and become another song ... which might not have been intentional or malignant ... all you need is a friend from the East Coast come visit you on the West Coast, and he/she hums a song, and then you pick it up and before you know it, you have something else ... that could be said to have come from that other piece.
One last thing ... that is VERY IMPORTANT here ... up to 50 years ago, most of this stuff was "invisible" ... only a handful of folks heard of Johnson this or that, or Sonny this or that ... today, with the media and internet and wiki, it's easy to all of a sudden "know" them all, and putting together a history is not a difficult process, although the details and the geography of it all is way too immense for most studies. But this was not there 50 years ago, and again, a lot of the "black" music was not available as widely as it is now.
This, is also a great lesson on music and its changes and history ... something almost similar also happened with "progressive" music, and led to places like "ProgArchives" being created, and helped maintain a strong connection to the number of artists, although not quite/exactly its history which is in the hands of a few (like DE, or Dean and others) ... and is not put together (as it probably should) to help explain the "progressive" gestation a lot better for yournger folks, that even post in this board.
The only issue might be ... that there are too many differences, and America is like 5 or 6 different countries and the black history in California is not the same as the black history in Alabama ... and it shows even in the music!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
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Points: 5538
Posted: February 07 2018 at 04:42
Greatest Zep-albums to me are also first to Houses of Holy, although there are great moments in later albums too, specially Physical Graffiti third side is just great. But I prefer more Fly By Night - Permanent Waves Rush albums.
Joined: March 18 2013
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 291
Posted: February 07 2018 at 04:14
Where Zepp lose the battle for me is from the opening bars of 2112 onward into the future. That's where Rush really gained my attention and the point from where I became an avid Rush follower. Zepp 1, 2, 3 and 4 were, to my mind, Blues based heavy rock in the main and those albums have admittedly lofty high points. Houses of the Holy was the last Zepp album that I kind of enjoyed and Physical Graffiti was the last Zepp album that I purchased (I lost my interest in the band from that point) - although I did purchase two Robert Plant albums later. Where Zepp's high point was "Stairway to Heaven" and it is a masterful composition in any musical sense "2112", for me, is a full on musical adventure. One is simply more widely commercially appreciated than the other one which is musically the better one in my opinion. Each to his own but relating to Desert Islands I'm taking 2112 or another Rush pick long before I take a Zeppelin album.
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65247
Posted: February 07 2018 at 02:08
^ yeaaahh I don't know, I think for many people here ~ well okay I'll speak for myself ~ it's not really subjective: Rush were plenty heavy and Zeppelin were plenty progressive. Both a superb and rare mix of uniquely talented people with unheard of musical chemistry. When I say I think Zep were somewhat superior it is my musician's opinion gathered from decades of listening, practicing, playing, writing, and gigging rather than my loyalties or preferences.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: March 18 2013
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 291
Posted: February 06 2018 at 05:45
I think it depends on where your music loyalty and preference lies. If you are into progressive music Rush wins hands down. If you are into 70's Rock music then Zeppelin are iconic. I love early Black Sabbath but I would hardly put them up against any good progressive band of the time relating to personal preference as my preference is for progressive music and always has been. Hell, I love Bob Dylan's and CSN music but if I had to take something to a desert Island it wouldn't be Dylan or CSN. If I want to charge my adrenaline I listen to Zepp or the like, if I want to charge my brain I listen to Rush - if I simply want to mellow out I listen to Dylan or Tom Petty.
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20029
Posted: February 06 2018 at 05:20
Mortte wrote:
jayem wrote:
Mortte wrote:
I donīt believe the music history and howīs it today would have been really much different without Zeppelin, but I believe it would have been different without Rush.
Shockin' ! Plant's playful and girly tone contrasting with dark power rythm section is very special. Also the amazing grooves in Good Times Bad Times and Black Dog; the mix of wit, fierceness, frivolity and melancholy in (studio's !) No Quarter... A song like The Crunge is unique too. Rush has solid and elaborate stuff but I haven't found the subtle mix of emotions from softness mixed with power I'd get in Zeppelin...
I think you should listen a lot more music of the same time, there was a whole lotta greater bands than Zeppelin.
" subtle mix of emotions from softness mixed with power" - nicely summed up sir.
Joined: November 11 2016
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Points: 5538
Posted: February 05 2018 at 23:07
And about that 350 old scales that are in Taurus and Stairway, what do you think will happend if I put that beginning and compose totally own song after that and it will become a hit? Do you think Page just thought "well thatīs just old piece I also borrowed"? No, I will have a lawsuit from Pageīs lawyers in that minute he will hear that song specially now when they won that Taurus case.
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
Posted: February 05 2018 at 22:52
About that Jimi comment Jimi anyway released four albums during his lifetime which no-one has still said any direct stealings (five songs credited to someone else, two Redding, one Earl King, one Dylan & two to Miles). Of course you can say he stealed Red House to somebody, cause itīs ordinary 12 bar blues made already millions times. I donīt know nothing about his live performance roalty payings, but anyway I think if itīs somebody to blame it was heīs mananger Mike Jefferey. Jimi himself was a person, who loaned money to the people who never pay him back.
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
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Points: 5538
Posted: February 05 2018 at 22:40
^At first, I am gladly admitting you know much more about blues than I. Anyway I think itīs quite unfair to make comparison those old blues stealings to Zeppelin, those old bluesmusicians were poor and those stealings was many the only way to get the everyday meal. As you already have said, Page was already in the sixties well paid session musician, so reason of his stealings really wasnīt everyday meal. I think the main reason of those ugly credit makings specially in the two first Zeppelin albums was, that Page want to success and he just havenīt got enough own ideas that time. Page was a respected session musician along the other musicians, but to the big audience he was unknown that time. With Yardbirds he didnīt make it, only album (little games) wasnīt a huge seller although they have some success in the US. Also Zeppelin made a great "Houses Of Holy"-album later, in which they really stand on their own. But I think their creativity low in the next albums, their quality is not as great as in Houses, also they start to steal again.
Also, when youīre saying the credit stealing was the tradition in blues, why didnīt Rolling Stones do that as much as Zeppelin? Yes, I know they have nanker-phelge pseydonym for their stealings, but still in their first albums 12 songs only 3 is credited to them and rest to the original song makers, in the second album same. In the first Zeppelin album there are two songs credited to originals although almost whole album is stealed to someone, in the second all is credited to Zep. Are you thinking Stones were just so stupid?
No, I really didnīt want Page to bring any old bluesmusicians dead body to the stage. As I said before, he could have done a favour to the bluesmusicians that are still living, just like Eric Clapton, Johnny Winter and Rolling Stones did. I donīt know he havenīt ever done any public appreciation to any bluesmusician during Zeppelin or after that, if I am wrong just tell me. Yes, I have Zeppelin Celebration day where Plant says about Trampled Underfoot that itīs their version of Terraplane Blues.
Also, that little I has listened the huge blues tradition, I donīt think there are stealings and recyclings that much what is commonly thinking. Songs like Sweet Home Chicago, Milk Cow Blues, Dust My Broom etc were many bluesmen repertoire, but they all have also own stuff and whatīs most important, they all really have own style. Of course blues is based much in the same chords and same chordrotations, so itīs understood why somebodies are saying itīs all just sounds the same. Also, it really make hard to say which is stealing and which is not. But back to Zeppelin, their style really wasnīt unique in their time, as I have before said, there were many bands with same style before Zeppelin, the same time as they were, and after them. Also, if you changed Stewards voice to Plants in Beckīs Truth, it could have been Zeppelinīs first album. That album really has a same style and sounds as it will be year after in Zeppelinīs first.
Of course Lifeson admits their Zeppelin influences, because heīs nice guy that Page isnīt. Rush first album is just another Zeppelin influenced album. My point was what happened after that album, Rush went into really own direction and become predecessors of neoprog. Zeppelin was always just recyclers of stuff that has already made. But have to say they of course still made good sounding albums and music.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
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Points: 13054
Posted: February 05 2018 at 20:35
Mortte wrote:
Nobody has still give me any proves to the essential accusation made here. That Jimi and others steal as direct as Zeppelin. No Jimi song or other artist song, that is so clear stealing from somebody else has put here.
First, Jimi Hendrix, who I adore, covered hundreds of songs live from artists who never received royalties until after Hendrix died.
Or perhaps you mean like Deep Purple stealing their greatest hit "Smoke on the Water" from Astrud Gilberto and Gil Evans? Or that nearly every great Deep Purple song was stolen?
Or how about the Eagles stealing the chord progression of "Hotel California" from Jethro Tull's "We Used to Know"? Or George Harrison lifting "My Sweet Lord" directly from the Chiffons' "He's So Fine"? I could go on forever, but I'll just mention Rob Paravonian's proof that nearly every rock ballad was based on Pachelbel's "Canon in D":
Mortte wrote:
Also, even bluesmusicians steal from each others, they always made own versions.
Your comment is amazingly inane, and devoid of fact. It merely proves that you should preclude yourself from discussing blues music. I could explain (very slowly) the cannibalistic nature of the blues from the early 20th century on, but I'll just reiterate from earlier what Big Bill Broonzy said about blues theft, and that the legendary Jelly Roll Morton admitted to stealing "The St. Louis Blues" from W.C. Handy, who stole that song and also "Jogo Blues" from guitarist Guy Williams, who had failed to copyright the songs. Jelly Roll stated simply that W.C. Handy couldn't play the blues for sh*t, and so Handy stole "St. Louis Blues" from Williams, and also "The Memphis Blues" from Tony Jackson. Through a shady deal with his attorney, Morton eventually bought the copyrights for two of the most famous blues songs of all time, "St. Louis Blues" and "Memphis Blues", for cheap and made them his.
Also, have you ever heard the blues song "Ain't Nobody's Business"? The original copyright in 1922 was by Porter Grainger and Everett Robbins. Did you know that there's roughly 20 different versions of that song that do not credit Grainger and Evans? Mississippi John Hurt had a great version titled "It Ain't Nobody's Business" on some albums and on others it is titled "Nobody's Dirty Business", it all depended on the mood he was in.
Mortte wrote:
And as I said before, they never made a millions from their music as Zeppelin did. Yes, Plant changes the words, he put times instead of years in that Howling Wolf-piece.
Are you aware that Howlin' Wolf borrowed lyrics for his song "Killin' Floor" from Skip James' "Hard Time Killin' Floor"? Of course you aren't aware. Have you listened to Zeppelin's "Lemon Song"? It uses lyrics from Howlin' Wolf's version, but the arrangement and delivery are completely different songs. Also, other lyics in the same song are borrowed from Robert Johnson, who in turn borrowed them from Arthur McKay. So Howlin' Wolf borrowed lyrics from Skip James, Robert Johnson borrowed from Arthur McKay, and Zeppelin borrowed from both. Get out the lawyers!
Mortte wrote:
Also, Page was in the back of Sonny Boy Williamson in the sixties, he was then quite unknown session musician and I donīt think that performing really progressed the career of Sonny Boy Williamson. When Zeppelin was in the success in the seventies, they could have perform with Muddy or some other bluesmusician and with that they would respect the roots that brought them their millions and also helped those musicians with a very little success of that time. But they didnīt do that.
Again, the ignorance is so thick one can cut it with a knife. Sonny Boy Williamson died in 1965. Did you want Jimmy to prop up his dead body on stage in the 70s? And you crack me up with saying that Page was an "unknown session musician". Page was THE session guitarist and played on songs from the Who, the Kinks, The Stones, Donovan, John Mayall, Marianne Faithful, Van Morrison & Them, Brenda Lee and Petula Clark. You can even hear Page on The Beatles' film a Hard Day's Night, for Christ's sake. Then he joined the Yardbirds in 1966, who had toured with Sonny Boy Williamson the previous year. How "unknown" was Page? He actually turned down joining the Yardbirds in late 1964 out of loyalty to Clapton, and turned them down again at the start of 1965 and he suggested Jeff Beck instead, because Page was making so much money doing session work that he would lose money touring with The Yardbirds.
Mortte wrote:
And Dark-Elf, I am really sorry if I hurt you feelings when revealing the lack of your knowledge about Rush and itīs influence to music.
Your impotent attempt at a put down is rather ironic, considering Rush pretended to be Canadian Zeppelin-lite for much of the 70s. In fact, you don't have to believe me, but you should listen to Alex Lifeson (he is the lead guitarist of Rush, if you weren't aware):
"Of any guitarist, Jimmy Page was my biggest influence. I wanted to look, think and play like him. Zeppelin had a heavy influence on Rush during our early days. Pages loose style of playing showed an immense confidence, and there are no rules to his playing."
I am done here.
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 05 2018 at 20:37
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65247
Posted: February 04 2018 at 22:54
Nothing wrong with your perspective, we were all there, many still are. Zeppelin were thieves. So be it. Accuse, suggest, throw ripe fruit, at the end of the day everyone knows a one-in-a-million group of players when they hear it.
Stole? Yeah, they stole the show every friggin' night they played with more spontaneous mastery, power, feeling, and magic than any of their peers. They blew 'em all away. Consistently.
Edited by Atavachron - February 04 2018 at 22:54
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
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Points: 5538
Posted: February 04 2018 at 22:46
Nobody has still give me any proves to the essential accusation made here. That Jimi and others steal as direct as Zeppelin. No Jimi song or other artist song, that is so clear stealing from somebody else has put here.
Also, even bluesmusicians steal from each others, they always made own versions. And as I said before, they never made a millions from their music as Zeppelin did. Yes, Plant changes the words, he put times instead of years in that Howling Wolf-piece. Also, Page was in the back of Sonny Boy Williamson in the sixties, he was then quite unknown session musician and I donīt think that performing really progressed the career of Sonny Boy Williamson. When Zeppelin was in the success in the seventies, they could have perform with Muddy or some other bluesmusician and with that they would respect the roots that brought them their millions and also helped those musicians with a very little success of that time. But they didnīt do that.
Hereīs list of Zeppelin covers and borrowings from wikipedia, they just donīt steal from the old bluesmen, there are also artists from the same times like Jake Holmes and Moby Grabe, if Hendrix and others do exactly same, just make a same kind of list into wikipedia:
But this is of course useless. Youīre bunch of men against me alone, who thinks no-one can say anything bad about Zeppelin. I am no rich b**tard to have enough money to buy all old wax blues, but I do have listened lots of old blues and music in commonly. But all of you, you can think of me what you like.
Truth is that musicians differ as we all. Some are just unscrupulous than others. Next thing you will say Obama and Trump has been just the same. Both just are rich and want the power.
Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: February 04 2018 at 13:55
indeed! Don't see many of those these days in the new and 'improved' PA's. A fine example of classic PA's posting smackdown.. only missing a few insults and stab wound to the back to finish off the poor and mismatched haha
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Rush vs Led Zeppelin
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Mortte wrote:
