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Topic ClosedSecond tier bands
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Poll Question: Which of these "second tier" bands is your favorite
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
10 [11.90%]
8 [9.52%]
10 [11.90%]
10 [11.90%]
4 [4.76%]
11 [13.10%]
14 [16.67%]
5 [5.95%]
2 [2.38%]
10 [11.90%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Points: 18987 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 10:19
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

[where does "first tier" end and "second tier" begin? ]

First tier ends with King Crimson.

Second tier begins with Gentle Giant. 

Just my opinion? Not really. It seems to be consensus based on all the time I've spent on prog forums over the years. Also, it seems that the whole tier thing is more about popularity and exposure than anything else. It's in no way meant to suggest that the lesser known bands don't have great albums that are in some cases as good as the so called first tier bands. 

yes, just your opinion. once again, the term is meaningless for me. not only that, it is in my opinion an insult to call a band "second tier". "oh dear, you're just second tier hrmph hrmph". popularity is not an indicator for quality, as you yourself remarked.

I would have had no objection had you called your post "less popular bands". but "second tier"? a big NO

Sorry you feel that way Jean. Not my intention to offend you. Anyway, I don't see much difference between "less popular" and "second tier." Second tier means just that though "less popular" and really nothing else. Second tier is an accepted term which is why I used it. It's not a term I made up. Anyway, try not to be too angry with it. Wink

it does not just mean "less popular", as I pointed out. it also means "of lesser quality". both meanings inevitably coexist, even if only one meaning is intended

Fair enough. Not every band can be among the very best though. However, most of these bands are still very good and classic prog bands in their own right.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 22 2018 at 10:21
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noni View Drop Down
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Points: 1092 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 10:36
1. Renaissance 
2. PFM
3. Caravan
4. Eloy
5. Nektar
6. Triumvirat
7. Strawbs
8. UK



Edited by noni - January 22 2018 at 10:38
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Points: 34086 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 10:55
I strugle to think of Reneissanse as second rate, even if i dont listen to them that much they are among the first bands i heard of in connection to prog alongside the big 7 of prog.

Edited by Icarium - January 22 2018 at 11:00
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Points: 9093 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 12:17
nice to see Renaissance in the lead.  They were pretty big in the 1970s in localized areas, like the US Northeast, and their albums, while not charting high in the general rock charts, tended to stay in the charts a long time. 
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Points: 8773 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 12:29
Triumvirat at bottom place? Come on, people!
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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 12:50
Focus or Gong or Nektar or Strawbs or Eloy. One of a those. No vote yet.
A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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noni View Drop Down
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Points: 1092 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 12:56
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

I strugle to think of Reneissanse as second rate, even if i dont listen to them that much they are among the first bands i heard of in connection to prog alongside the big 7 of prog.

I agree, never thought them as 2nd tier.  Play Renaissance probably once every 2 months or so..  With so much music in my collection,  it's hard to play every album..  Big smile...  The same can be said with the Enid,  another great band!....Wink
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Points: 4707 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 13:28
every one of these bands has at least one album that I love

voted Focus
Prog On!
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Points: 29562 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 15:21
Eloy (sorry Doug)
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Points: 18987 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 17:24
Ok, folks. Here it goes. Why were Renaissance and PFM included? You guys don't consider them to be second tier. Ok, fine. Everyone has their own interpretation of things. Why are Focus on here? They had one of the biggest prog hits with "hocus pocus." Also, why didn't I include Gentle Giant, Camel or VDGG aren't they considered second tier also? Yes, but in my mind those bands are a bit ahead of most of the others IN MY OPINION. Based on my years of research in prog the first tier bands are the most popular and over all most respected(yes some of these bands are just as good at times but just over all weren't or aren't quite as well known). Typically the first tier is King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull and maybe Rush and the Moody Blues and maybe one or two others. This is not a science it's based on what I have come to understand who the biggest prog bands are. Also, being that I live in the US my opinion will reflect that. Again do you I really have to go on about how this poll represents my opinion? Everyone has their own interpretation and opinion of things. OK? 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 22 2018 at 17:26
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:17
I must admit I never understood the popularity of King Crimson. the only explanation I have is that it is based on the myths that they invented prog rock and that ITCOTCK is the first prog album, neither of which is true. the fact alone that most people skip "Moonchild" makes me wonder why their first album is so highly rated, considering that "I Talk to the Wind" is a full-fledged pop song (albeit an excellent one).

the music of KC is, contrary to the music of ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes and Jethro Tull, in general not mainstream enough to explain this popularity


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Points: 2215 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:32
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I must admit I never understood the popularity of King Crimson. the only explanation I have is that it is based on the myths that they invented prog rock and that ITCOTCK is the first prog album, neither of which is true. the fact alone that most people skip "Moonchild" makes me wonder why their first album is so highly rated, considering that "I Talk to the Wind" is a full-fledged pop song (albeit an excellent one).

the music of KC is, contrary to the music of ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes and Jethro Tull, in general not mainstream enough to explain this popularity

I don't get it either. I don't like them myself. 
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Points: 37379 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:36
Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I must admit I never understood the popularity of King Crimson. the only explanation I have is that it is based on the myths that they invented prog rock and that ITCOTCK is the first prog album, neither of which is true. the fact alone that most people skip "Moonchild" makes me wonder why their first album is so highly rated, considering that "I Talk to the Wind" is a full-fledged pop song (albeit an excellent one).

the music of KC is, contrary to the music of ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes and Jethro Tull, in general not mainstream enough to explain this popularity

I don't get it either. I don't like them myself. 


Not even this just a little bit?
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Points: 2215 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:40
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I must admit I never understood the popularity of King Crimson. the only explanation I have is that it is based on the myths that they invented prog rock and that ITCOTCK is the first prog album, neither of which is true. the fact alone that most people skip "Moonchild" makes me wonder why their first album is so highly rated, considering that "I Talk to the Wind" is a full-fledged pop song (albeit an excellent one).

the music of KC is, contrary to the music of ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes and Jethro Tull, in general not mainstream enough to explain this popularity

I don't get it either. I don't like them myself. 


Not even this just a little bit?


Sorry friend but I'm a Christian, and so when I found out what their name means I was done with them. I know you're rolling your eyes right now lol. But it is what it is. 
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Points: 231 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:49
The thing about Crimson is that they were always changing their style. If one didn't appreciate In the Court so much, then there is Lark's Tongues and Red with Bruford's amazing unique original drumming. Then the 80s lin-up with the triple-counterpoint guitars and stick, again totally unique. So, it is possible to dislike one Crimson era and really like another. 

By the way, I am confused about the comment about their name. What does their name mean? I have never heard anyone say it was anti-Christian before (and Robert Fripp himself is Christian)
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Points: 37379 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:49
Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I must admit I never understood the popularity of King Crimson. the only explanation I have is that it is based on the myths that they invented prog rock and that ITCOTCK is the first prog album, neither of which is true. the fact alone that most people skip "Moonchild" makes me wonder why their first album is so highly rated, considering that "I Talk to the Wind" is a full-fledged pop song (albeit an excellent one).

the music of KC is, contrary to the music of ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes and Jethro Tull, in general not mainstream enough to explain this popularity

I don't get it either. I don't like them myself. 


Not even this just a little bit?


Sorry friend but I'm a Christian, and so when I found out what their name means I was done with them. I know you're rolling your eyes right now lol. But it is what it is. 


Oh, so its just based on the band name, not the music. Can you still enjoy Yes knowing that Bill Bruford was drummer on King Crimson albums and knowing that Jon Anderson sung on that track? It's kind of like selling one's soul to the devil. And of course, other musicians from prog bands such as ELP with Greg Lake worked with KC.

Regarding the name:

Originally posted by wikipedia wikipedia wrote:

The band's name was coined by Sinfield, though it is not meant to be a synonym for Beelzebub, prince of demons.[14] (According to Fripp, Beelzebub would be an anglicised form of the Arabic phrase "B'il Sabab", meaning "the man with an aim".[15]) Historically and etymologically, a "crimson king" was any monarch during whose reign there was civil unrest and copious bloodshed....


Edited by Logan - January 22 2018 at 19:54
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Points: 21343 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:53
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I must admit I never understood the popularity of King Crimson. the only explanation I have is that it is based on the myths that they invented prog rock and that ITCOTCK is the first prog album, neither of which is true. the fact alone that most people skip "Moonchild" makes me wonder why their first album is so highly rated, considering that "I Talk to the Wind" is a full-fledged pop song (albeit an excellent one).

the music of KC is, contrary to the music of ELP, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Yes and Jethro Tull, in general not mainstream enough to explain this popularity

I believe its because lots of people enjoy their music.
Ian

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Points: 2215 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 19:55

Edit: And absolutely I love Yes! Possibly my favorite prog band. 


Edited by YESESIS - January 22 2018 at 19:59
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Points: 1409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 20:00
Gong, Strawbs and Focus aren't 2nd tier!!!!!!
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 37379 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 20:15
Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

[URL=http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7214" rel="nofollow][/URL]

Edit: And absolutely I love Yes! Possibly my favorite prog band. 


But does it bother you that Yes band members worked with King Crimson?

For some more on the name from https://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/Metaphysical.html:

"The name was suggested by the band's songwriter, Peter Sinfield -

"The name King Crimson was mine -
I wanted something like Led Zeppelin, something with a bit of power to it.
Anything better than Giles, Giles, and Fripp.
King Crimson had arrogance to it."

The guitarist Robert Fripp is quoted in a booklet accompanying the Essential King Crimson box set,

"The name King Crimson is a synonym for Beelzebub,
which is an anglicized form of the Arabic phrase B'il Sabab.
This means literally the man with an aim and is the recognizable quality of King Crimson."

Beelzebub was a Philistine God who later became associated with the Devil.

I didn't know Fripp was a Christian, I knew he was spiritual and explored religion, but I associated him with Buddhism.

Some talk on King Crimson at a Christian forum:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/king-crimson.6298425/

Anyway, lyricist Sinfield (who also worked with ELP) was "to blame' for the name. Incidentally, Peter Gabriel has cited Robert Fripp as an influence. And Robert Fripp produced Peter Gabriel's second album.



Edited by Logan - January 22 2018 at 20:17
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