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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2017 at 00:07
Shame, Camp is such a great bassist. Right off the bat on Prologue, and even the ‘abysmal’ (I happen to like it a lot !!) Time Line, Camp was up there with the best of ‘em. Man, I love Camera Camera. It blew me away at the very first listen (like most of their albums). My first taste of this wonderful band was around ‘91 - Novella. The gatefold cover was fancy and the long track timings drew me in immediately. I did not regret the discovery !!

Edited by Tom Ozric - October 22 2017 at 00:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2017 at 00:42
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Shame, Camp is such a great bassist. Right off the bat on Prologue, and even the ‘abysmal’ (I happen to like it a lot !!) Time Line, Camp was up there with the best of ‘em. Man, I love Camera Camera. It blew me away at the very first listen (like most of their albums). My first taste of this wonderful band was around ‘91 - Novella. The gatefold cover was fancy and the long track timings drew me in immediately. I did not regret the discovery !!

Great bassist indeed.  But in a way, it is not a surprise because he and Annie were the most extrovert of the classic line up and always seemed to have a sort of competition going on.  Kind of a Don Dokken-George Lynch dynamic except Camp was playing bass, not electric guitar in the shred era.  So he could get away with it as long as Annie, inexplicably, didn't assert herself.  She seems to have sworn "Never again" after the 80s.  I cannot in all honesty say it is for the better (for my taste) and I am not sure she gave free rein to Dunford either on Tuscany or Grandine Il Vento.  But it's worked; three of the Grandine songs have become concert staples.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2017 at 00:47
I mean, if you take Metallica, Hammett is happy letting Hetfield have all the limelight as long as he gets to play enough leads.  It's not that Hetfield is much more talented than Hammett as a musician but he is doing vocals plus rhythm guitar and has a dominating personality so somebody else stealing the spotlight from him won't work.  It's why Mustaine did not last long in Metallica. Generally, you can't have two dominating personalities in a band; one will have to cede ground to the other or both will have to compromise and decide to collaborate like Bon Scott and the Young brothers.
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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2017 at 04:03
Ha !! Mustaine and Hetfield eh ? Talk about a clash of egos. Gimme Megadeth over Metallica any day.
Back on track now : Day Of The Dreamer    Love this exquisite piece of music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2017 at 04:07
Same here.  Rust in Peace!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2017 at 04:13
^ Classic !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2017 at 16:26
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Ha !! Mustaine and Hetfield eh ? Talk about a clash of egos. Gimme Megadeth over Metallica any day.
Back on track now : Day Of The Dreamer    Love this exquisite piece of music.

indeed Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 10:23
the show at the Keswick is tomorrow night and I can't wait!
It not only will have the orchestra but it's the one they will film for the DVD.

I was reviewing the stunning Park West performance from 1983 and was wondering, probably a question for Rogerthat, but who actually came up with the vocalise?  Did she totally improvise it or did she practice it as heard, and did she come up with it on her own.  I still shake my head that this talent was never fully appreciated, or perhaps it was, by anyone who can appreciate it, and that's the extent of it 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 20:12
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

the show at the Keswick is tomorrow night and I can't wait!
It not only will have the orchestra but it's the one they will film for the DVD.

I was reviewing the stunning Park West performance from 1983 and was wondering, probably a question for Rogerthat, but who actually came up with the vocalise?  Did she totally improvise it or did she practice it as heard, and did she come up with it on her own.  I still shake my head that this talent was never fully appreciated, or perhaps it was, by anyone who can appreciate it, and that's the extent of it 

Annie has said in interviews that she had a big role to play in the vocal arrangements.  So this seems to suggest she came up with the vocal solos of her own for the most part.  In other tracks, she was mostly mimicking the actual music composed for orchestra in the studio recording but this was not possible on Ashes are burning as it's a guitar solo.  So she took a different approach. 

I think she built up the vocal solo on Ashes up to the culmination that was Park West '83.  The genesis probably lay in the Albert Hall performance of Ashes are burning where she sort of does that rapid alternation but only three times or so before sustaining the E6 and closing the vocalise section.  She MAY have done that in an older performance; there is no way to tell because no two Ashes are burning vocal solos are the same which means many that went unrecorded have been forever lost without a trace.  But back to the point, if we come to Boardwalk '79, the vocal solo is pretty close to Park West. 

In some ways, this solo is even better than Park West because the crescendo is almost identical while for the rest of it, she sings almost as if in a trance, using a lot of vibrato to add a lot of flavour to the vocalise.  I guess Park West just sounds more intense because of the more rock-like instrumental set up.  Plus, Park West surfaced first on the interwebs so that's stuck in everyone's mind as the definitive Annie Haslam vocalise.  Had Boardwalk turned up first, who knows, people may have had a different view. 

As for appreciation of talent, see, the problem is Annie operates in a genre which tends to attract people who appreciate great instrumentation rather than great vocals.  So people just kind of overlook her work; plus, people check out the studio albums rather than random live performances on youtube.  If they do get there, her horrendous outfit and the 80s instrumentation will dissuade a lot of people from ever getting to the point where she unleashes the magic.


Edited by rogerthat - October 26 2017 at 20:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 20:31
To just explain in short why the thing she does at 4:50 in the Park west performance of Ashes is incredible, just try singing at the very top of your range.  You won't be able to hang around for too long before you run out of breath.  Slipping into a single note and sustaining it is easier than trying to actually sing, like, different notes up there.  Annie rapidly (and I mean really rapidly, like a guitar shred) alternates E6 and F#6 like it was nothing.  And she does it for something like 10 seconds without losing breath.  That's just beyond words.  Not to raise the sexist bogey, but I bet if a male singer did that, he would self promote himself shamelessly and people would lap it up too.  People just find it hard to take a woman's talent seriously, sorry to say so.  Not intended for the Renaissance fans here, who obviously do appreciate Annie's amazing talent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 21:23
very well put, thanks for that.  I think that, as an unabashed fan of Annie (in Renaissance), I have to say that the reason I prefer the Park West performance over Boardwalk '79 is that you can see her clearly, whereas in Boardwalk I think the visual cut out, didn't it?  I love watching her unleashing with abandon, which adds quite a bit to the experience over just the audio.  Yeah the outfit is out there, but it's the performance!

Edit - just looked again at Boardwalk...agreed that in some ways it surpasses Park West.  But the sound/video quality on Park West and the greater focus on Annie makes it superior for me


Edited by kenethlevine - October 26 2017 at 21:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 21:35
Yeah, the video/audio quality does help. My point was more that there are actually other performances of the track which are more or less as good. Who knows where else she performed it in the 80s (and of which there are no recordings).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 21:48
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Yeah, the video/audio quality does help. My point was more that there are actually other performances of the track which are more or less as good. Who knows where else she performed it in the 80s (and of which there are no recordings).

I did see them in April 1982 in Ottawa and they definitely did Ashes.  It may well have been the Boardwalk/Park West Ashes, and I know my college mates were all raving about it afterwards.  It was a fantastic show with a few songs from Camera Camera and a few from ASFAS.  As we have noted, the band's live performances certainly didn't suffer even when record sales were plummeting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 22:09
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Yeah, the video/audio quality does help. My point was more that there are actually other performances of the track which are more or less as good. Who knows where else she performed it in the 80s (and of which there are no recordings).


I did see them in April 1982 in Ottawa and they definitely did Ashes.  It may well have been the Boardwalk/Park West Ashes, and I know my college mates were all raving about it afterwards.  It was a fantastic show with a few songs from Camera Camera and a few from ASFAS.  As we have noted, the band's live performances certainly didn't suffer even when record sales were plummeting


So..Another thing I love about the Park West performance is initially the audience looks grumpy (it had not been a great show up to that point). But when she goes for the high G at around 3:50 (unable to post the link), they start jumping up like kids in excitement and when she does that guitar solo thing at 4:50 they just go wild. Annie at her best can toy with the audience just standing there and singing into the mic, no running around, no "come on Chicago" nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluvmarillion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 23:54
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Shame, Camp is such a great bassist. Right off the bat on Prologue, and even the ‘abysmal’ (I happen to like it a lot !!) Time Line, Camp was up there with the best of ‘em. Man, I love Camera Camera. It blew me away at the very first listen (like most of their albums). My first taste of this wonderful band was around ‘91 - Novella. The gatefold cover was fancy and the long track timings drew me in immediately. I did not regret the discovery !!

What is it you like about Camera Camera? My copy of the vinyl finished up in the rubbish bin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2017 at 03:53
Hope you enjoyed the Keswick show, Ken. They have posted stills from the show on facebook and even video of their Carpet performance from the Ridgefield show. I have never seen Annie so excited. She goofed up the song name while introducing but made a hilarious joke out of it. Sounded in great voice too. When the orchestra sat down, she did a sort of joke operatic vocalise... turned away from the mic!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2017 at 09:16
Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:


What is it you like about Camera Camera? My copy of the vinyl finished up in the rubbish bin.
This is not directed at you, but many early KC fans jumped on the Discipline train when that version of the band came out simply bulked at Camera Camera. I view Camera Camera in the same light, but with a few caveats. One, Gosling's synth tones contain a bit too much dissonance for most people, but he was trying to come up with a distinctive keyboard sound, as was the fashion with 70's prog keyboardists. Two, "Running Away From You" is a terrible song. That's it. I love the rest. Smile

Edited by SteveG - October 28 2017 at 09:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2017 at 23:15
The show was fantastic and the orchestra brilliant.
Here is the set list as I remember it but may be slightly off in order

Prologue
Trip to the Fair

Then orchestra appears
Carpet of the Sun
At the Harbour
Grandine Il Vento
Symphony of Light
Kalynda
Island
Mother Russia
Song for all Seasons

Orchestra and band departs, only band returns
Ashes are Burning

So 4 songs that have not been part of the regular live set for years. I really had goosebumps
when they did Kalynda. It was my favourite from
Azure D’Or and one of the few bright spots of the album.
She actually referred to it as a beautiful song written by Jon Camp. Such class

The orchestra really brought out the brilliance of the Mother Russia/Song for all Seasons
combo. Annie deferred to Mark Lambert’s guitar shredding at the end of Ashes but
she didn’t skimp on much else.
U
While the orchestra only had about 10 members, they probably played 30
instruments between them. Loved the oboe
and flute especially.

Can’t wait for the DVD!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2017 at 23:18
I should mention Annie was overcome a few times with emotion, the first time
possibly being after the first of probably 5 standing ovations spread throughout the show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2017 at 00:22
Ken, how was Island? I am curious as to how Annie sounded on the song she had performed for her Renaissance audition.
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