The American Politics Thread |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 00:23 | |
Oh I think it's very much a winning strategy Mick, it won for Obama and Clinton and in fact I think it's what the Dems NEED. Otherwise, as stated, I think the flyover states will default to Republican. The suburbs of Wisconsin to Pennsylvania will go red. We thought it was getting better, but Trump shattered that. Thinking about it, I think If GWBush was meaner and more willing to get into the cesspool he likely would've won harder than he did.
Its what we discussed, how the white working class often votes against its own interests. I think this is the case when the Dems fail to produce a good econ platform (or the person is not believable/unlikeable). When they have a good candidate and econ platform, seems they win. If not, they dont. Makes sense to me: If people don't have that econ outlet, then...yeah they will turn to social issues, religion, racial anxiety, foreign enemies. This will bounce of rogerthat, yes it does seem like you always default to the "20 years from now" line, which is perfectly fine and we know demographics are swinging our way, but as I've said before...we need to win now. Can't sit back and wait for 20 years. To win now, the Dems assumed the Obama coalition will hold up on its own, it has not they need to at least make an attempt to hold it together. So let's talk about now, 20 years from now is 20 years from now but today: The right is clearly winning the culture war, you have basically said so. Maybe they wont in the future but today they certainly do. Aside from certain issues, the Dems would be wise to downplay this while campaigning. Stressed so no one thinks I'm saying they should abandon that stuff. And the white nationalist thing is obviously something the Dems should speak out against....sadly I fear they will have the chance as surely more rallies will happen. This too could play into the GOP hands though...people don't want nuance or detail, if sh*t goes down, they will run to big daddy Trump wanting to feel safe. They may not care to look into the details of what happened, who started what and how it progressed, if anyone had permits or etc they will see "chaos in the streets" and want their law and order. Especially since: race is involved. Back to those prejudices, while most people may not be white supremacists we all know many will/already do think it's angry black people, and crazed liberals, and boom: back to Nixon and Reagan. It's really quite an epic mess. I hope I'm wrong and people will hold these rallies against Trump for emboldening them, and people are disgusted by his comments, like his latest about "beautiful" confederate statues. I hope people will do that but as ya said....not always rational they are. I think I mentioned this elsewhere, as of now, there is good support for his muslim bans, many do want to crack down on Mexican immigration (which is not an issue but like we said most of these people live in their all white communities and never see a Mexican). Just saying, the culture war is still very much of a right bias. Though there are issues we can push back on, like reversing the disturbing decline of abortion rights, marijuana liberalization which is gaining support by the year, uphold gay marriage and LGBT rights which again support is one the rise. Denounce Trump's stupid transgender military ban which no one seems to like. That's all, lets be wise how we do this AND add to it a fresh idea on healthcare, higher min wages, reducing college tuition etc
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 00:50 | |
That's for sure. The "liberal metrics" they are against are things like: peace? non violence? Understanding if you take to destruction or are willing to quickly jump to injuring, you may be not much better than the fascists? And while what you say is true, talk about details and stuff many Americans will have no time for. In the end their actions will lead many people to think "ugh crazy liberals" and the causes are harmed. I'm sure you'll say the causes I deem liberal are not what antifa wants so they dont care, and they may not care if Repubs keep winning because the Dems "are no better" but that's where agree to disagree shall come in. Thanks for the responses mathman! Just for the sake of not making an even longer comment, and you're way better at condensing than I I'll just respond directly. Yes, you are right about that, I have no doubt Trump really does believe it all and yeah....any hopes for a pivot or "growing into the Presidency" are shot dead and buried now. You are correct, my apologies if my big ramble was unclear but I actually agree, I think for many racial and economic anxieties are the same. That is precisely what Trump is playing off, for some it may be both or one or the other, and like I said his "strategy" has actually worked, throw EVERYTHING at the wall, people will pick and choose what they want then. Ha trickle down what indeed. If the wealth is a pool, the only thing trickling down is the urine of the wealthy who have been peeing in it, sipping their fancy drinks. That's where I get sad. People may choose bad ways to let it out, but lots of people really are hurting. We know all about the soaring rates of obesity, hard drug use, suicide and declining health outcomes for many working class people. They are nervous about losing their jobs, may be increasingly struggling to make ends meet, and feel pissed off the government in general has not helped them in any way (which is true). It does seem like Trump is kind of the natural result of our society, bleak as that is to say. These things don't just come out of nowhere, and I do believe while the PotUS can guide us, they largely follow the movements already happening. Trump didn't create the wave, been building for years he just rode in on it.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 04:07 | |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66290 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 05:21 | |
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, ensuring that there is no prohibition on the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble, or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights. The greatest thing about the USA in my opinion is this 1st amendment. This amendment gives pricks like the KKK and Neo Nazis the right to spout off their nonsense. They are free to exercise their right to freedom of speech, no matter how deplorable and hateful their speech may be. Now I'm not sure how a hate group can technically "peaceably" assemble, but without the counterprotesters there to take the bait I suspect that the violence that occurred wouldn't have occurred. I guess what I am getting at is that as much as I disagree with the message that these groups have, it is their right to provide this message and ironically, preventing them from giving this message would actually go against America's #1 core value. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me". Once they cross that line then all bets are off, but as long as they are just spouting hate that is their right to do so.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66290 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 05:33 | |
I guess this is the point that I am trying to make. Nothing has really changed all that much. Hillary pointed out this basket of deplorables during the campaign and all that it did was energize Trump and his supporters. Are we really all that surprised that Trump responded how he did? People are acting as though "now he has crossed the line and gone too far" but as far as I can tell he is just being consistent. I have no idea how this clown got elected but it worked for him then, and honestly, I wonder if we are delusioning ourselves if we think that anything has changed because of his remarks. The people that hated him then still hate him now and have been quite vocal about it since day one of his election but sadly this mostly just comes across as sour grapes. From what I can gather, the people who voted for him then only because they hated Hillary, may regret his behavior and that he is such a buffoon, but they would still rather not have Hillary. I just don't think that this is the game changer that the Democrats are hoping that it is.
Edited by rushfan4 - August 18 2017 at 05:35 |
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AZF
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 17 2012 Location: Wirral Status: Offline Points: 1079 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 08:01 | |
Everyone thought Dubya was a joke and then he became the respected Commander In Chief after 9/11. (Although most still thought privately held was a dick)
Imagine the size of the 9/11 you'd need to turn Trump's approval around? And Democrats, Clinton's, be it Hilary or Chelsea don't work! What is the point of banging on about independence if all you are going to do is vote for the same useless families to lord it over you? If a candidate comes along and they turn out to be distantly related to the Royal Family, then that's your cue to vote against them! It isn't Rocket science. |
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 10:29 | |
The fact that one can do this at all is a quirk of English, which allows one to vary sentence stress to almost anywhere in a sentence while leaving the words in the same place. This cannot be done in many languages, as sentence stress is often fixed. Placing contrast on the actor/subject of a sentence might require another construction altogether, such as the equivalent of an it-cleft ('It is Black lives that matter' or 'It is White lives that matter') or by adding something that indicates that focus should be placed on 'Black lives'. The lack of relevance of 'White lives matter' to 'Black lives matter' would be immediately obvious because there would be an alteration in the wording of the sentence. In English it's a word game. The speakers propounding 'White lives matter' know it's a word game. They may not be linguists, but they are native speakers of English with native speaker intuitions, and they know it's a word game, though I'm sure cognitive dissonance has them in states of denial. The best one can say in their favor is that perhaps a logician told them they can do what they are doing. I sincerely doubt that they actually have consulted any logician, but logic would identify 'Black lives' as an argument of the verb 'matter'. Logic, however, does not conform well to natural language. It ignores information management. As discussed above, languages have different devices to manage information. In English it's stress. In other languages it's variation in sentence construction and so on. Edited by HackettFan - August 18 2017 at 10:34 |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Evolver
Special Collaborator Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams Joined: October 22 2005 Location: The Idiocracy Status: Offline Points: 5482 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 11:46 | |
Thanks, Todd, for such an eloquent post.
May I add that the mistake the right wing makes (deliberately, I believe) is that the phrase "Black Lives Matter" inherently implies that white lives do not matter, where to the rest of us it says that black lives matter as much as white lives.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 11:59 | |
Thing is Scott, those people are simply just wrong. I get you're saying that's what they believe, but I know that, the issue is flat out they are incorrect.
"All lives matter" in itself shows a racial bias I believe. (Btw seen plenty of those signs on the edges of town, where the "country" seeps in or where the rich folk live up here in this corner) People who say so may not think that, they may sincerely believe it, but there is one. The reason, imo, is simple. They are missing the point. Whenever people respond with "All lives matter" I think it's because they're taking BLM to mean "Black lives matter, more" or "Black lives matter, only". When in reality, this is not the case, it basically means "Black lives matter, too". People miss this, they jump to a negative conclusion....why? I think because of a racial bias. Also we have to be realistic, for many they simply hate/are scared of "angry black people". We see it all over, news to sports coverage, people don't like when they speak up, god forbid yell. Feeds the myth these people who live in mostly white suburbs believe about our crime infested cities turning into war zones. The police issue has a yuuuge racial bias, I don't think this one is really shocking. And again the right/defenders seem to reallllly take things to the extreme. You can't so dare say "Sometimes, some cops may use excessive force or show racial biases" this triggers people into a nuclear rage. I can even say (which is true) "I respect cops, I don't want violence in the streets and I dont want cops being killed. Of course we should arrest criminals but...sometimes some cops use excessive force or show racial biases" everything before that last part is wiped away, and you're just a crazed anarchist who wants to shoot cops. This happened to me, I was sincerely accused by a long time friend of mine of condoning "mobs" and "killing cops" Jeeeeesus and they say we are overly sensitive, easily offended snowflakes??? As for how people will respond to all this nazi stuff and what will it do for Trump/Democrats...it's a tough one. Like I said, most people even racists wont go full out white supremacist. Most will strongly disprove of that stuff, and if you believe in 538 seems the vast majority do. However, it also showed people are far more unsure about the confederate statues thing, and this is absolutely an area where Trump can settle. Pretend the other comments never happened, just focus on the confederate imagery issue, and I do bet you're right, lots of voters will fall in line, they too will ignore the other comments and settle in that debate. THIS is why I think the Dems should hype up other issues, this stuff is inherently sticky. Why wade into this war which is amorphous and difficult, when you can stick to issues you know also matter to these people (it seems the Obama-Trump voters are more economically liberal and inequality concerned than Republicans). So yeah I can agree, I wouldn't be surprised if in the end all this nazi stuff blows over and people will find ways to keep justifying their vote. I've always maintained the Dems do need a real platform anyway and shouldn't just rely on anti-Trumpism or kick back and assume he'll implode. He's sagging in the rust belt today but all it may take is the next domestic terror attack (Islamic of course) or one of these situations to get violent, and back to Trump they go. If there's ONE lesson the Dems do learn from this November I hope to god its they need to knock off the "lets just wait for things to come back our way, and dont fret heres 9000 reasons why it will happen" mentality.
Edited by JJLehto - August 18 2017 at 12:00 |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66290 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 12:22 | |
I'm not quite sure what HackettFan is trying to get at with his post, but I assume it is because I do not have a PhD in linguistics (congrats on that by the way). The only reason that I typed the word Black in bold was to stress the word that people to tend to have a problem with in that catchphrase.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 12:59 | |
It's still dumb to me though, he didn't need to do all that to keep the white conservative fears going. He could've spoke out hard against it and take credit for saying the right thing, THEN fall back on normal Republican race baiting, like....defending the confederate statue stuff, an issue were people are more open to.
Speaking of all that, Steve Bannon is out! Seems it was the decision of Kelly, who is on the mission of trying to drain the swamp Trump created and bring some normalcy and competence to the WH. This battle of competing forces to gain influence of the WH is getting interesting. Seems the "normal" forces, under Kelly, are winning out for now: Flynn and his allies, the Mooch, now big Bannon all out or being purged. We shall see what comes of this. If normalcy wins out, does Trump make the pivot to normalcy? Which for the GOP isn't really that far from what Trump does. Will he be completely unchanged? Is this all the loooong game from the establishment? Slowly purge out all Trump and Bannonism so they can primary him in 2020 and by then hopefully win against the discredited movement? Does Bannon turn his army on the mainstream more and keep fueling the Trump train, turn on Trump? Interesting times ahead |
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mathman0806
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 06 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6443 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 13:12 | |
Normalcy can only happen if Trump resigns. His ego/delusional nature is too massive to ever have that happen. I finally read the New Yorker interview with his Art of the Deal ghostwriter, which was done over a year ago
(http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all if anyone hasn't read it), and accentuates that he doesn't operate in any sense of normalcy. Republicans are trying lipstick on a pig to make this work, but until Trump is gone, it's almost impossible to really look at policy and real political issues. It's unfortunate for Dems, because attacking him on being a loon is the obvious route, but it doesn't get at the real debate and education that is needed in regards to policy for the U.S. to move onward.
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 14:52 | |
Edited by HackettFan - August 18 2017 at 14:55 |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10619 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 15:55 | |
Its quite simple; the phrase black lives matter does not imply that other lives do not matter, it just points out that there are those who act as if black lives don't matter.
Edited by Easy Money - August 18 2017 at 16:23 |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65272 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 16:30 | |
^ Wurd.
The thing we tend to either forget or deny is that in the US, sometimes black lives don't matter, or don't seem to. Not suggesting that anyone here thinks that and I'm not judging the public in general, but sometimes even us bedwetting liberals don't always give African Americans the respect that they, that we all, deserve. It's a long, long process. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 16:33 | |
Indeed, and the fact so many people jump to that conclusion, must speak to something. Which is nothing new, we never did deal with our race issue, just keep ignoring it and moving around to avoid it.
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mathman0806
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 06 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6443 |
Posted: August 18 2017 at 17:39 | |
Yeah, when a White supremacist, chants white lives matter, they mean "only" white lives matter. The point of black lives matter is to mean black lives matter "as well." |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20252 |
Posted: August 19 2017 at 02:53 | |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
Posted: August 19 2017 at 03:18 | |
As to black lives matter, wouldn't it be more correct to state black lives matter, too. (Just asking.)
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20609 |
Posted: August 19 2017 at 03:19 | |
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