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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 00:23
Oh I think it's very much a winning strategy Mick, it won for Obama and Clinton and in fact I think it's what the Dems NEED. Otherwise, as stated, I think the flyover states will default to Republican. The suburbs of Wisconsin to Pennsylvania will go red. We thought it was getting better, but Trump shattered that. Thinking about it, I think If GWBush was meaner and more willing to get into the cesspool he likely would've won harder than he did. 
Its what we discussed, how the white working class often votes against its own interests. I think this is the case when the Dems fail to produce a good econ platform (or the person is not believable/unlikeable). When they have a good candidate and econ platform, seems they win. If not, they dont. Makes sense to me: If people don't have that econ outlet, then...yeah they will turn to social issues, religion, racial anxiety, foreign enemies. 

This will bounce of rogerthat, yes it does seem like you always default to the "20 years from now" line, which is perfectly fine and we know demographics are swinging our way, but as I've said before...we need to win now. Can't sit back and wait for 20 years. To win now, the Dems assumed the Obama coalition will hold up on its own, it has not they need to at least make an attempt to hold it together. So let's talk about now, 20 years from now is 20 years from now but today: 
The right is clearly winning the culture war, you have basically said so. Maybe they wont in the future but today they certainly do. 

Aside from certain issues, the Dems would be wise to downplay this while campaigning. 
Stressed so no one thinks I'm saying they should abandon that stuff. 
And the white nationalist thing is obviously something the Dems should speak out against....sadly I fear they will have the chance as surely more rallies will happen. This too could play into the GOP hands though...people don't want nuance or detail, if sh*t goes down, they will run to big daddy Trump wanting to feel safe. They may not care to look into the details of what happened, who started what and how it progressed, if anyone had permits or etc they will see "chaos in the streets" and want their law and order. Especially since: race is involved. Back to those prejudices, while most people may not be white supremacists we all know many will/already do think it's angry black people, and crazed liberals, and boom: back to Nixon and Reagan. It's really quite an epic mess. I hope I'm wrong and people will hold these rallies against Trump for emboldening them, and people are disgusted by his comments, like his latest about "beautiful" confederate statues. I hope people will do that but as ya said....not always rational they are. 

I think I mentioned this elsewhere, as of now, there is good support for his muslim bans, many do want to crack down on Mexican immigration (which is not an issue but like we said most of these people live in their all white communities and never see a Mexican). Just saying, the culture war is still very much of a right bias. Though there are issues we can push back on, like reversing the disturbing decline of abortion rights, marijuana liberalization which is gaining support by the year, uphold gay marriage and LGBT rights which again  support is one the rise. Denounce Trump's stupid transgender military ban which no one seems to like. That's all, lets be wise how we do this AND add to it a fresh idea on healthcare, higher min wages, reducing college tuition etc 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 00:50
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


It is important to note that while some antifa members/groups are liberal, many are not, they are often socialists of various types, from democratic socialists to anarchists to Maoists. You can't really use liberal metrics to explain their actions because they are actively against them.

That's for sure. The "liberal metrics" they are against are things like: peace? non violence? Understanding if you take to destruction or are willing to quickly jump to injuring, you may be not much better than the fascists? 
And while what you say is true, talk about details and stuff many Americans will have no time for. In the end their actions will lead many people to think "ugh crazy liberals" and the causes are harmed. I'm sure you'll say the causes I deem liberal are not what antifa wants so they dont care, and they may not care if Repubs keep winning because the Dems "are no better" but that's where agree to disagree shall come in. 

Thanks for the responses mathman! Just for the sake of not making an even longer comment, and you're way better at condensing than ILOL I'll just respond directly. 
Yes, you are right about that, I have no doubt Trump really does believe it all and yeah....any hopes for a pivot or "growing into the Presidency" are shot dead and buried now. 
You are correct, my apologies if my big ramble was unclear but I actually agree, I think for many racial and economic anxieties are the same. That is precisely what Trump is playing off, for some it may be both or one or the other, and like I said his "strategy" has actually worked, throw EVERYTHING at the wall, people will pick and choose what they want then. 


Ha trickle down what indeed. If the wealth is a pool, the only thing trickling down is the urine of the wealthy who have been peeing in it, sipping their fancy drinks.
That's where I get sad. People may choose bad ways to let it out, but lots of people really are hurting. We know all about the soaring rates of obesity, hard drug use, suicide and declining health outcomes for many working class people. They are nervous about losing their jobs, may be increasingly struggling to make ends meet, and feel pissed off the government in general has not helped them in any way (which is true).

It does seem like Trump is kind of the natural result of our society, bleak as that is to say. These things don't just come out of nowhere, and I do believe while the PotUS can guide us, they largely follow the movements already happening. Trump didn't create the wave, been building for years he just rode in on it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 04:07
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^ From the outside looking in, it's far from clear though that they have lost the culture war.  You're looking into the distant future and marking a point in time when you expect the white population will no longer be the most significant demographic block.  Note, it only has to be the single largest demographic block, as long as somebody succeeds in mobilising it.  I.e, just because a state has less than 50% white population doesn't necessarily mean it will go to the Democrats unless they mobilise and monopolise all of the non white vote in the same way as the Repubs do with the white vote.  Of course, Trump's latest remarks would go a long way in helping the Democrats achieve that but at what cost?  There is also the possibility that if Charlottesville sets off a series of such rallies (as the neo Nazis have promised) rather than being a one off, many of the recent immigrants to USA will feel unsafe and future migration with or without Trump embargos may slow down. Which is exactly what the white nationalists want - to turn the clock back and make it a white nation all over again. In that sense, I can see why some like Warren are calling for doubling down on social progressivism because the moment they change to more of an economic issues party, they'd have ceded control on social issues to the Republicans.  But again, how long will they keep this up?  After one more loss, they may start getting desperate.  Their career is politics and preserving one's career may take precedence over values.  Their best bet is Trump's screw ups cost the Republicans badly in the mid term polls but we can't say that for sure unless we know how hardcore Trump voters feel about this issue.  I do find many on the net who say, "No, Trump is right, both sides are at fault".
Trump will never, ever lose his core supporters. If anything, they will grow over time, not diminish. He's smart enough to know this and no amount of dissention from his own party members to his military commanders will alter that. It is the ugly side of America that has always been there, and with Trump's help, they will become more and more prevalent and vocal. They are the alt right that feels marginalized, even with Trump in the White House and the Republicans running both the Senate and the House. If they don't feel that the government represents them now, then when? When a real KKK leader is actually in the White House. Now, how sick is that? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 05:21
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, ensuring that there is no prohibition on the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble, or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.

The greatest thing about the USA in my opinion is this 1st amendment.  This amendment gives pricks like the KKK and Neo Nazis the right to spout off their nonsense. They are free to exercise their right to freedom of speech, no matter how deplorable and hateful their speech may be.  Now I'm not sure how a hate group can technically "peaceably" assemble, but without the counterprotesters there to take the bait I suspect that the violence that occurred wouldn't have occurred. 

I guess what I am getting at is that as much as I disagree with the message that these groups have, it is their right to provide this message and ironically, preventing them from giving this message would actually go against America's #1 core value.  "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me".  Once they cross that line then all bets are off, but as long as they are just spouting hate that is their right to do so.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 05:33

I guess this is the point that I am trying to make.  Nothing has really changed all that much.  Hillary pointed out this basket of deplorables during the campaign and all that it did was energize Trump and his supporters.  Are we really all that surprised that Trump responded how he did?  People are acting as though "now he has crossed the line and gone too far" but as far as I can tell he is just being consistent. I have no idea how this clown got elected but it worked for him then, and honestly, I wonder if we are delusioning ourselves if we think that anything has changed because of his remarks.  The people that hated him then still hate him now and have been quite vocal about it since day one of his election but sadly this mostly just comes across as sour grapes.

From what I can gather, the people who voted for him then only because they hated Hillary, may regret his behavior and that he is such a buffoon, but they would still rather not have Hillary.  I just don't think that this is the game changer that the Democrats are hoping that it is.


Edited by rushfan4 - August 18 2017 at 05:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 08:01
Everyone thought Dubya was a joke and then he became the respected Commander In Chief after 9/11. (Although most still thought privately held was a dick)
Imagine the size of the 9/11 you'd need to turn Trump's approval around?
And Democrats, Clinton's, be it Hilary or Chelsea don't work!
What is the point of banging on about independence if all you are going to do is vote for the same useless families to lord it over you?
If a candidate comes along and they turn out to be distantly related to the Royal Family, then that's your cue to vote against them! It isn't Rocket science.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 10:29
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

The other thing that I was getting at in my post is that there is a side here that aren't necessarily racist but are instead anti-discrimative against their own race.  The common complaint I hear about people's problem with Black Lives Matter is that All Lives Matter and by continuing to only stress that Black Lives Matter is offensive to non-Blacks.  Police Lives Matter too! 

This must not go unchallenged. You put "Black" in boldface type. Why would you or anyone do that? To put emphasis on the word as if its purpose were to contrast with non-Blacks. Fine, but that is not the default sentence stress in English. The subject is normally de-stressed and presupposed. "Black" is of course the presupposition in 'Black Lives Matter' because it defines the topic that is under discussion, not unlike any thread in this forum. It is not being contrasted with frog or troglodyte lives. It is talking about Black lives and that's as far as it Is taking it. The part that is the assertion is the verb, 'matter'. In a cogent disagreement one would counter another's assertion with their own counter-assertion. Since the straightforward counter-assertion would be 'Black lives do not matter' and is astonishingly revealing, people prefer to direct their counter-assertion against the presupposition ('White lives matter), but this is not a cogent method of argumentation. This doesn't matter to 'White lives matter' people, because it still rhetorically puts the 'Black lives matter' assertion in the trash can, because most people do not have a PhD in Linguistics as I do, and are not able to call them on it.

The fact that one can do this at all is a quirk of English, which allows one to vary sentence stress to almost anywhere in a sentence while leaving the words in the same place. This cannot be done in many languages, as sentence stress is often fixed. Placing contrast on the actor/subject of a sentence might require another construction altogether, such as the equivalent of an it-cleft ('It is Black lives that matter' or 'It is White lives that matter') or by adding something that indicates that focus should be placed on 'Black lives'. The lack of relevance of 'White lives matter' to 'Black lives matter' would be immediately obvious because there would be an alteration in the wording of the sentence. In English it's a word game. The speakers propounding 'White lives matter' know it's a word game. They may not be linguists, but they are native speakers of English with native speaker intuitions, and they know it's a word game, though I'm sure cognitive dissonance has them in states of denial.

The best one can say in their favor is that perhaps a logician told them they can do what they are doing. I sincerely doubt that they actually have consulted any logician, but logic would identify 'Black lives' as an argument of the verb 'matter'. Logic, however, does not conform well to natural language. It ignores information management. As discussed above, languages have different devices to manage information. In English it's stress. In other languages it's variation in sentence construction and so on.





Edited by HackettFan - August 18 2017 at 10:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 11:46
Thanks, Todd, for such an eloquent post.
 
May I add that the mistake the right wing makes (deliberately, I believe) is that the phrase "Black Lives Matter" inherently implies that white lives do not matter, where to the rest of us it says that black lives matter as much as white lives.
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 11:59
Thing is Scott, those people are simply just wrong. I get you're saying that's what they believe, but I know that, the issue is flat out they are incorrect. 
"All lives matter" in itself shows a racial bias I believe. (Btw seen plenty of those signs on the edges of town, where the "country" seeps in or where the rich folk live up here in this corner) 
People who say so may not think that, they may sincerely believe it, but there is one. The reason, imo, is simple. 
They are missing the point. 
Whenever people respond with "All lives matter" I think it's because they're taking BLM to mean "Black lives matter, more" or "Black lives matter, only". When in reality, this is not the case, it basically means "Black lives matter, too". People miss this, they jump to a negative conclusion....why? I think because of a racial bias. Also we have to be realistic, for many they simply hate/are scared of "angry black people". We see it all over, news to sports coverage, people don't like when they speak up, god forbid yell. Feeds the myth these people who live in mostly white suburbs believe about our crime infested cities turning into war zones. 

The police issue has a yuuuge racial bias, I don't think this one is really shocking. And again the right/defenders seem to reallllly take things to the extreme. You can't so dare say "Sometimes, some cops may use excessive force or show racial biases" this triggers people into a nuclear rage. I can even say (which is true) "I respect cops, I don't want violence in the streets and I dont want cops being killed. Of course we should arrest criminals but...sometimes some cops use excessive force or show racial biases" everything before that last part is wiped away, and you're just a crazed anarchist who wants to shoot cops. This happened to me, I was sincerely accused by a long time friend of mine of condoning "mobs" and "killing cops" Jeeeeesus and they say we are overly sensitive, easily offended snowflakes???

As for how people will respond to all this nazi stuff and what will it do for Trump/Democrats...it's a tough one. Like I said, most people even racists wont go full out white supremacist. Most will strongly disprove of that stuff, and if you believe in 538 seems the vast majority do. However, it also showed people are far more unsure about the confederate statues thing, and this is absolutely an area where Trump can settle. Pretend the other comments never happened, just focus on the confederate imagery issue, and I do bet you're right, lots of voters will fall in line, they too will ignore the other comments and settle in that debate. 
THIS is why I think the Dems should hype up other issues, this stuff is inherently sticky. Why wade into this war which is amorphous and difficult, when you can stick to issues you know also matter to these people (it seems the Obama-Trump voters are more economically liberal and inequality concerned than Republicans).

So yeah I can agree, I wouldn't be surprised if in the end all this nazi stuff blows over and people will find ways to keep justifying their vote. I've always maintained the Dems do need a real platform anyway and shouldn't just rely on anti-Trumpism or kick back and assume he'll implode. He's sagging in the rust belt today but all it may take is the next domestic terror attack (Islamic of course) or one of these situations to get violent, and back to Trump they go. 
If there's ONE lesson the Dems do learn from this November I hope to god its they need to knock off the "lets just wait for things to come back our way, and dont fret heres 9000 reasons why it will happen" mentality. 


Edited by JJLehto - August 18 2017 at 12:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 12:22
I'm not quite sure what HackettFan is trying to get at with his post, but I assume it is because I do not have a PhD in linguistics (congrats on that by the way).  The only reason that I typed the word Black in bold was to stress the word that people to tend to have a problem with in that catchphrase. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 12:59
It's still dumb to me though, he didn't need to do all that to keep the white conservative fears going. He could've spoke out hard against it and take credit for saying the right thing, THEN fall back on normal Republican race baiting, like....defending the confederate statue stuff, an issue were people are more open to. 

Speaking of all that, Steve Bannon is out! 
Seems it was the decision of Kelly, who is on the mission of trying to drain the swamp Trump created and bring some normalcy and competence to the WH. 
This battle of competing forces to gain influence of the WH is getting interesting. Seems the "normal" forces, under Kelly, are winning out for now: Flynn and his allies, the Mooch, now big Bannon all out or being purged. We shall see what comes of this. If normalcy wins out, does Trump make the pivot to normalcy? Which for the GOP isn't really that far from what Trump does. Will he be completely unchanged? 
Is this all the loooong game from the establishment? Slowly purge out all Trump and Bannonism so they can primary him in 2020 and by then hopefully win against the discredited movement? Does Bannon turn his army on the mainstream more and keep fueling the Trump train, turn on Trump? 

Interesting times ahead

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 13:12
Normalcy can only happen if Trump resigns. His ego/delusional nature is too massive to ever have that happen. I finally read the New Yorker interview with his Art of the Deal ghostwriter, which was done over a year ago 
(http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all if anyone hasn't read it), and accentuates that he doesn't operate in any sense of normalcy. 

Republicans are trying lipstick on a pig to make this work, but until Trump is gone, it's almost impossible to really look at policy and real political issues. It's unfortunate for Dems, because attacking him on being a loon is the obvious route, but it doesn't get at the real debate and education that is needed in regards to policy for the U.S. to move onward.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 14:52
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I'm not quite sure what HackettFan is trying to get at with his post, but I assume it is because I do not have a PhD in linguistics (congrats on that by the way).  The only reason that I typed the word Black in bold was to stress the word that people to tend to have a problem with in that catchphrase. 


Yes, you were adequately describing what their problem with it was by placing 'black' in bold. And I explained that that does not comport with what any and every native speaker understands about the language. They are being disingenuous by forming that interpretation. They are changing its meaning. Let's put it this way. A 'Black lives matter' activist would speak in a fashion as to put the sentence stress on 'matter' (place 'matter' in bold). This is the normal default way to utter sentences in English according to how information is typically packaged. If I say horses have four legs, one is not free to say that I am saying that sheep do not. If I say animals matter, one is not free to say that I am saying that humans do not. If I say that Linguistics is a cool cognitive science, one is not free to say that I am saying that Psychology is not.




Edited by HackettFan - August 18 2017 at 14:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 15:55
Its quite simple; the phrase black lives matter does not imply that other lives do not matter, it just points out that there are those who act as if black lives don't matter.

Edited by Easy Money - August 18 2017 at 16:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 16:30
^ Wurd.

The thing we tend to either forget or deny is that in the US, sometimes black lives don't matter, or don't seem to.   Not suggesting that anyone here thinks that and I'm not judging the public in general, but sometimes even us bedwetting liberals don't always give African Americans the respect that they, that we all, deserve.

It's a long, long process.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 16:33
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Its quite simple; the phrase black lives matter does not imply that other lives do not matter, it just points out that there are those who act as if black lives don't matter.

Indeed, and the fact so many people jump to that conclusion, must speak to something. Which is nothing new, we never did deal with our race issue, just keep ignoring it and moving around to avoid it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2017 at 17:39
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Its quite simple; the phrase black lives matter does not imply that other lives do not matter, it just points out that there are those who act as if black lives don't matter.


Indeed, and the fact so many people jump to that conclusion, must speak to something. Which is nothing new, we never did deal with our race issue, just keep ignoring it and moving around to avoid it. 


Yeah, when a White supremacist, chants white lives matter, they mean "only" white lives matter. The point of black lives matter is to mean black lives matter "as well."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2017 at 02:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2017 at 03:18
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Its quite simple; the phrase black lives matter does not imply that other lives do not matter, it just points out that there are those who act as if black lives don't matter.

Indeed, and the fact so many people jump to that conclusion, must speak to something. Which is nothing new, we never did deal with our race issue, just keep ignoring it and moving around to avoid it. 
Yes, our race issue is down to laws put on paper. We have done little to alter how people think about race issues. The fact that Trump's Christian supporters failed to object to his "both sides were at fault" stance illustrates that clearly. If the church will not take a stand on race issues, how can it's followers?
 
As to black lives matter, wouldn't it be more correct to state black lives matter, too. (Just asking.)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2017 at 03:19
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Two more X's and the Dems win the game!
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