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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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 Posted: July 07 2017 at 21:46 |
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I said it once before that India and Pakistan reflect their respect cold war overlords - one is secretive and more prone to concealing information while the other is blusterous and likes to simply fudge it. Unfortunately, we are becoming more like USA these days with similar jingoistic propaganda to distract the people from what is happening, rather to the point where it is not clear what is exactly happening.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
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Posted: July 08 2017 at 08:22 |
 siLLy puPPy wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I'm sorry, but Russia is the worst of two evils. Our democratic process still ensures transparency in goverment. That is not the case with Russia, and never will be.
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I would argue that our democratic transparency is nothing more than an illusion. I'm not sure where you live but here in the USA our "democracy" didn't ensure the election of Gore in the year 2000. It was hijacked by the Supreme Court. It didn't prevent the illegal occupation of Iraq (not to mention Vietnma, Korea etc) and the untold millions of deaths. It didn't prevent the CIA backed coup d'etats of Honduras, Libya, etc. The truth is that the whole "democracy" is nothing more than a charade. A clever crafted puppet show to keep the masses entertained. I could go on for hours as i've been digging for years into deep state secrecy. There is a thing called the black budget here. That is a blackhole of secrecy that is paid for by the taxpayers but isn't even accountable to Congress as it's completely classified no one knows for sure what it does. I have heard hundreds of hours of whistleblower testimony about these things. As far as Russia, i think of its role similar to Golem's in Lord of the Rings. It is coming to the table with totally twisted intentions but will unknowingly be a major player in making sure the ring of power ends up in the fiery pits of Mordor. Like i said, i could go on for days about this stuff but i'm over it. I'd rather write another music review instead :P |
I'm American and split my time between the US and the UK.
If there's so little transparency in American Government, then how did you arrive at the facts you stated above? Your gripe is with transparency after the fact. However, you still know the facts. Do you really think that's possible with our counterparts in Russia? As I said, Russia is the worst of two evils, not the better.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15253
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Posted: July 08 2017 at 11:38 |
SteveG wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I'm sorry, but Russia is the worst of two evils. Our democratic process still ensures transparency in goverment. That is not the case with Russia, and never will be.
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I would argue that our democratic transparency is nothing more than an illusion. I'm not sure where you live but here in the USA our "democracy" didn't ensure the election of Gore in the year 2000. It was hijacked by the Supreme Court. It didn't prevent the illegal occupation of Iraq (not to mention Vietnma, Korea etc) and the untold millions of deaths. It didn't prevent the CIA backed coup d'etats of Honduras, Libya, etc. The truth is that the whole "democracy" is nothing more than a charade. A clever crafted puppet show to keep the masses entertained. I could go on for hours as i've been digging for years into deep state secrecy. There is a thing called the black budget here. That is a blackhole of secrecy that is paid for by the taxpayers but isn't even accountable to Congress as it's completely classified no one knows for sure what it does. I have heard hundreds of hours of whistleblower testimony about these things. As far as Russia, i think of its role similar to Golem's in Lord of the Rings. It is coming to the table with totally twisted intentions but will unknowingly be a major player in making sure the ring of power ends up in the fiery pits of Mordor. Like i said, i could go on for days about this stuff but i'm over it. I'd rather write another music review instead :P |
I'm American and split my time between the US and the UK.
If there's so little transparency in American Government, then how did you arrive at the facts you stated above? Your gripe is with transparency after the fact. However, you still know the facts. Do you really think that's possible with our counterparts in Russia? As I said, Russia is the worst of two evils, not the better. |
I've learned these facts by people who had the courage to disclose secrecy that they found immoral despite the system rather than because of it. Think Dan Ellsburg, Thomas Drake, Edward Snowden and you'll get my drift. True our government hasn't been totally dismantled yet but it's quickly becoming so. Evil is too simple of a term for such nebulous complexities. Yes I would rather live in the USA than Russia but I am hardly proud of my country's behavior on the world stage
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 https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 08 2017 at 23:40 |
As for Saudi Arabia, I am reminded of a conversation between French president Francois Mitterand and the Saudi king (Fahd, I believe) where he was told by the latter " When are you going to build more mosques in France?" To which Mitterand responded "I will build 1000 mosques in France when you build one church in Saudi Arabia". Primitive but rich b*****ds........
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 09 2017 at 17:33 |
The answer is obviously number one. Saudi Arabia is a financial and ideological funder of terrorism.
This isn't even really something to debate, we know it. Besides the financing...they actively export Wahhabism which is a source of extremism itself. BUT intl relations sucks...they dont just supply us with oil and buy our arms, but they have been a source of stability in the region, and as more states fall out of our favor we've been forced closer and closer. As it's been pointed out here, they really aren't a stable force but I'm not sure how long we have known this. By this point we're kinda stuck. There is no easy way out.
I always hoped that as we wean off oil it would provide a natural chance to drift from the Saudi's but things never go so easy 
Edit: Oh the situation has become even worse thanks to ISIS now. Because the fight against ISIS while a global effort, is basically a complex proxy war just underneath. We are allied with SA and it's even harder to break because we have to "fight" these other actors as well. It's a mess of the grandest proportions.
Edited by JJLehto - July 09 2017 at 17:35
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 04:16 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
SteveG wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I'm sorry, but Russia is the worst of two evils. Our democratic process still ensures transparency in goverment. That is not the case with Russia, and never will be.
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I would argue that our democratic transparency is nothing more than an illusion. I'm not sure where you live but here in the USA our "democracy" didn't ensure the election of Gore in the year 2000. It was hijacked by the Supreme Court. It didn't prevent the illegal occupation of Iraq (not to mention Vietnma, Korea etc) and the untold millions of deaths. It didn't prevent the CIA backed coup d'etats of Honduras, Libya, etc. The truth is that the whole "democracy" is nothing more than a charade. A clever crafted puppet show to keep the masses entertained. I could go on for hours as i've been digging for years into deep state secrecy. There is a thing called the black budget here. That is a blackhole of secrecy that is paid for by the taxpayers but isn't even accountable to Congress as it's completely classified no one knows for sure what it does. I have heard hundreds of hours of whistleblower testimony about these things. As far as Russia, i think of its role similar to Golem's in Lord of the Rings. It is coming to the table with totally twisted intentions but will unknowingly be a major player in making sure the ring of power ends up in the fiery pits of Mordor. Like i said, i could go on for days about this stuff but i'm over it. I'd rather write another music review instead :P |
I'm American and split my time between the US and the UK.
If there's so little transparency in American Government, then how did you arrive at the facts you stated above? Your gripe is with transparency after the fact. However, you still know the facts. Do you really think that's possible with our counterparts in Russia? As I said, Russia is the worst of two evils, not the better. |
I've learned these facts by people who had the courage to disclose secrecy that they found immoral despite the system rather than because of it. Think Dan Ellsburg, Thomas Drake, Edward Snowden and you'll get my drift. True our government hasn't been totally dismantled yet but it's quickly becoming so. Evil is too simple of a term for such nebulous complexities. Yes I would rather live in the USA than Russia but I am hardly proud of my country's behavior on the world stage |
Unfortunately, when people focus totally on the negative and come to be believe that the so called "dark hole of the deep state" is all pervading, we miss the positives that result from the negatives we focus on. Especially the nonstop and never ending multiple leaks from both the Dems and Repubs fueled, by the current hostile hyper partisanship that so far has revealed Hilary's server, Podesta's hacked emails by the Russians, the DNC shenanigans to insure Hilary gets nominated over Bernie, the past cozy relationship between Flynn and others of Trump's cabinet with both Russia's government and government officials, just as a few examples. We did not need a Edward Snowden to know these facts. Or the fact that Repubs are involved in Gerrymandering, actively involved in blocking Black voting, etc, which is public knowledge without any insider leaking needed. Or the extreme case where James Comey views both parties as corrupt and investigates both and publicly states so. I've seen more info brought into the light simply because it's leaked or is right in front of my face. So much for deep state paranoia. There's enough info floating about that can dishearten one without thinking of possible but unsubstantiated deep state conspiracies.
Edited by SteveG - July 11 2017 at 11:21
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 05:43 |
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Anne Applebaum is hardly, by modern historical standards, a "leftist". I read her book on the Gulag system and there wasn't much political bias. Pretty run of the mill, politically. I wasn't particularly impressed as it was a reasonably decent concatenation of standard sources. I wouldn't rush to read any more of her work.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 06:11 |
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Let's step back 30 years, when everyone was talking about boycotting Saudi Arabia due to their human rights records..... oh yes, they had oil, it never happened.
And they still have oil. So, that's how international politics works. It's strange, but there are all these rogue states all over the world.... countless thousands dead in Rwanda, world does nothing, no political gain to be had in stepping in as World Policeman. The lie repeated to the (voting) population is that any police action taken is to ensure freedom and liberty. But it's not. It's for political advantage or to preserve the economic status quo.
Same with the UK, Germany etc. When you start looking into the causes for most wars, there's an economic background to it. Grab more land and resources, expand the Empire. It'd be nice to think that the US would intervene in countries like Saudi Arabia, but the sad fact of the matter is that human rights (or even the fact that some elements in Saudi support or sponsor terrorism) but unless you've got 10,000 Saudi jihadists detonating suicide bombs in Times Square, the oil revenue is always going to take the front seat.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 06:22 |
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"Democracy" is a convenient term to excuse actions which are actually taken for economic or political reasons.
If you took a trip around the Equator, virtually every country you come across would have a human rights issue which would invite some "democracy" being applied to them by an external agency. The world has 196 countries and probably 80%+ of them could sorely do with someone forcibly getting their act together. So there's - reducto ad absurdam - an argument for the US spreading the democratic message to all of them, like some wandering 19th century missionary.
Except there's no economic reason to do so.
Regarding terrorism. The US spent 30 years of funding the IRA via NORAID in Boston. 90 per cent of the IRA's funds and weapons came from "give a dollar to kill a soldier" pot shakers in Boston, extracting money from Plastic Paddies who really didn't have a clue. Whilst the USSR was funding low level wars in Africa, the US was doing the same in Central America. One mans' freedom fighter is another mans' terrorist, of course.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 06:22 |
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Good WIKI article on democracy here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15253
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 07:12 |
SteveG wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
SteveG wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I'm sorry, but Russia is the worst of two evils. Our democratic process still ensures transparency in goverment. That is not the case with Russia, and never will be.
|
I would argue that our democratic transparency is nothing more than an illusion. I'm not sure where you live but here in the USA our "democracy" didn't ensure the election of Gore in the year 2000. It was hijacked by the Supreme Court. It didn't prevent the illegal occupation of Iraq (not to mention Vietnma, Korea etc) and the untold millions of deaths. It didn't prevent the CIA backed coup d'etats of Honduras, Libya, etc. The truth is that the whole "democracy" is nothing more than a charade. A clever crafted puppet show to keep the masses entertained. I could go on for hours as i've been digging for years into deep state secrecy. There is a thing called the black budget here. That is a blackhole of secrecy that is paid for by the taxpayers but isn't even accountable to Congress as it's completely classified no one knows for sure what it does. I have heard hundreds of hours of whistleblower testimony about these things. As far as Russia, i think of its role similar to Golem's in Lord of the Rings. It is coming to the table with totally twisted intentions but will unknowingly be a major player in making sure the ring of power ends up in the fiery pits of Mordor. Like i said, i could go on for days about this stuff but i'm over it. I'd rather write another music review instead :P |
I'm American and split my time between the US and the UK.
If there's so little transparency in American Government, then how did you arrive at the facts you stated above? Your gripe is with transparency after the fact. However, you still know the facts. Do you really think that's possible with our counterparts in Russia? As I said, Russia is the worst of two evils, not the better. |
I've learned these facts by people who had the courage to disclose secrecy that they found immoral despite the system rather than because of it. Think Dan Ellsburg, Thomas Drake, Edward Snowden and you'll get my drift. True our government hasn't been totally dismantled yet but it's quickly becoming so. Evil is too simple of a term for such nebulous complexities. Yes I would rather live in the USA than Russia but I am hardly proud of my country's behavior on the world stage |
Unfortunately, when people focus totally on the negative and come to be believe that the so called "dark hole of the deep state" is all pervading, we miss the positives that result from the negatives we focus on. Especially the nonstop and never ending multiple leaks from both the Dems and Repubs fueled by the current hostile hyper partisanship that so has revealed Hilary's server, Podesta's hacked emails by the Russians, the DNC shenanigans to insure Hilary gets nominated over Bernie, the past cozy relationship between Flynn and other's of Trump cabinet with both the Russia's government and government officials, just as a few examples. We did not need a Edward Snowden to know these facts. Or the fact that Repubs are involved in Gerrymandering, actively involved in blocking Black voting, etc, which is public knowledge without any insider leaking needed. Or the extreme case where James Comey views both parties as corrupt and instigates both and publicly states so. I've see more info brought into the light simply because it's leaked or is right in front of my face. So much for deep state paranoia. There's enough info floating about that can dishearten one without thinking of possible but unsubstantiated deep state conspiracies.
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In this particular discussion i'm focusing on the negatives because that's what needs to be changed. If you're sick with stomach pains, do you focus on how good your toes feel? Of course i'm aware of what IS good about the world, but all that is at risk with the reckless behaviour of the power hungry dementors of doom at the helm. As far as learning about clandestine covert operations, it is absolutely essential that whistleblowers who are invovled behind the scenes expose wrongdoings in the government / corporate / military sector. And lastly, you should separate individuals like us from the general public. We apparently dig deep to understand these things on a deeper level, but crap don't change until the greater public understands what's going on, therefore Edward Snowden was absolutely essential for his role in all the leaks.
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 08:11 |
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^Yes, you're stance has merit, but until widely known "crap" like gerrymandering and voter discrimination is tackled and fixed first, how can you hope to fix all of the "covert crap" that you're concerned with? Be it as it may, we have to know the problems first before they can be rectified. I don't see an issue in these problems coming to light in our current political battle ground. Only their cure. Now back to your great reviews!
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15253
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 08:54 |
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, you're stance has merit, but until widely known "crap" like gerrymandering and voter discrimination is tackled and fixed first, how can you hope to fix all of the "covert crap" that you're concerned with? Be it as it may, we have to know the problems first before they can be rectified. I don't see an issue in these problems coming to light in our current political battle ground. Only their cure. Now back to your great reviews! |
Couldn't agree more! 
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: July 10 2017 at 14:08 |
Davesax1965 wrote:
Good WIKI article on democracy here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index |
Really good indeed, thanks ;) But like some of us stated above, I think that most people would have to dig deep to understand these things on a deeper level... Some countries from Central and Eastern Europe , as well as the whole Latin America are today the best examples of how far their regimes are from achieving some positive changes......
Edited by Tillerman88 - July 10 2017 at 14:11
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The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 11 2017 at 00:33 |
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Which countries in Central or Eastern Europe are you referring to? Poland and Hungary? or Ukraine and Belarus? Just wondering.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
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Posted: July 11 2017 at 02:53 |
Probably not Turkmenistan. ;-)
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: July 11 2017 at 10:18 |
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Central Asia? the hot bed of democracy and fair elections....lol
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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