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Topic ClosedIs Sgt Pepper Prog?

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SteveG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2017 at 04:28
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The whole myth and the accompanying warped bigoted stereotypes of the hippie culture is mostly that. A myth. Most Americans were either in college to avoid the draft or actually drafted for the war, while a very tiny group ran off to Canada. The tune in, turn on and drop out crowd was a small part of the population that was intimately aligned with the anti war/anti draft movement. You know, the 4 people shot in Ohio in 1970 (way after the hippie scene was supposed to be dead, another myth) by the American National Guard while they protested the insane, illegal and immoral war in Vietnam. Shot and killed after placing flowers in the gun barrels of the Guardsmen's riffles. But why be concerned, even 45 years later. After all, they were only mimicking useless wastrels and embraced their hippy values. You know, the people that supposedly cared little about and contributed nothing to society. Right?

Edit: Btw, it was psychedelic rock that vanished in 1968, not hippies.
And the myth continues - the four people murdered in the Kent State shootings were students not hippies. The hippy movement brought the anti-war message to the fore but it didn't own the monopoly on it. The Student unrest that occurred in the late sixties and early seventies was not a part of the hippy movement but in some ways was a reaction to the indifference of society as a whole to the message it preached. Sure there is correlation, but we should be wary of drawing direct conclusions from that because what those students were protesting about in America wasn't the same as they were protesting about in Paris and Munich.
The myth continues, if you care to keep perpetuating it. To make myself clearer, strike out the line in my post " After all, they were only mimicking useless wastrels and embraced their hippy values. You know, the people that supposedly cared little about and contributed nothing to society. Right?" and insert "These students were only mimicking useless wastrels and embraced their hippy values. You know, the people that supposedly cared little about and contributed nothing to society. Right?" 

It's kind of silly to mimic one's self isn't it? But you are correct. I'm speaking of American student demonstrators only.
And the mythinformation continues. I took your original comment to be a flippant rejoinder due to the implied sarcastic tone of the language used, but since you have altered that I now dispute your claim all together as I don't see that they were mimicking anything of the sort nor had they adopted any hippy values. And while on the subject of perpetuating myths, nor were they shot and killed after placing flowers in the gun barrels of the Guardsmen's riffles. While such incidents of putting flowers in gun barrels did happen, it didn't at Kent State on May 4th 1970 and the most iconic of those occurred 300 miles away in 1967 (and no one got shot as a consequence of doing it) - also it is highly improbable that any students would have got close enough to the guardsmen to do it on that day without being bayoneted first, as had happened on the previous day.

However, none of this is particularly relevant to the topic other than as an illustration of how memory isn't quite as exact as we'd like it to be.
Dean, if the flowers in the gun barrels as metaphor flew over your head, then I'm afraid that you will not see the generalized wide spread peaceful behavior of the students as a whole. That whole being part of their culture. The counter culture of which the hippies and students actually shared. And that's no myth, as much as you wish it to be.
Bullsnot. Stern Smile 

You know, the 4 people shot in Ohio in 1970 (way after the hippie scene was supposed to be dead, another myth) by the American National Guard while they protested the insane, illegal and immoral war in Vietnam. Shot and killed after placing flowers in the gun barrels of the Guardsmen's riffles. " - was a statement of presumed fact, not a bloody metaphor - if you meant it as a metaphor at the time you wrote it then that was not made clear until now - and frankly I simply cannot see it even after you've claimed that it was. Also, it was a protest against Nixon's announced invasion of Cambodia, not Vietnam, unless that was a sodding metaphor too.

If you do nothing else today, read the accounts of the Kent State massacre as I have this afternoon, and not just on Wikipedia either - read more than one article because even an event as well known as this is shrouded in inaccuracies and misreporting. 
There's no BS regarding this as both a metaphor and a stereotype that you should have appreciated, based on your past hippie bashing and insinuations, and is right up your alley, along with your incessant view of hippies as dirty, based on the numerous times you posted photo after photo of after concert pictures from festivals like Woodstock and the like, that were declared disaster areas due to the unmanageable and unforeseen amount of attendees.

As for your advice regarding my further knowledge of the facts regarding the Kent State shootings, I'll call Neil Young,  whom I worked with for almost twenty years and I'll talk to him about it, as we talk almost monthly. He researched it a bit, even after his song Ohio became a hit, and he even knows a little more about it than Wikipedia. Imagine that.

Edit: I can't believe the amount of captchas I had to go through to post this. But it was worth it.

Eeeeuuw!...
 

Now here's a thing or five ... I appreciate what I deem worthy of being appreciated - an honest misremembered memory I can understand, saying it was a metaphor not so much, but hey - if you say it's a metaphor then who am I to question that? - hippies putting flowers in the barrels of guardsmen's rifles is a metaphor for students not putting flowers in the barrels of guardsmen's rifles... so I didn't get it but so what? that's my dumb stupidity and your dumb luck, no big deal there and no great surprises either. Unless you telegraph a metaphor ahead of time or use ones that are not quite so closely related to what you're trying to convey them perhaps (just perhaps mind), I'll not take them at their literal meaning. Never mind, everything I write is probably an unnecessary metaphor for something or other if only I knew what it was. I can do flippancy, glibness and irreverence but not metaphors it would seem. (yay)

I believe that once in some 37,000 posts I probably posted an ironic picture of the mess left behind after some festival or other possibly in response to some bullsnot claim that hippies cared for the planet or some such nonsense, but incessant and time after time? Nah, you dreamt that. What you may have half-remembered is the trite and tiresome joke I trot out with regular monotony that hippies never die, they only smell that way - which is based solely on the the reek of patchouli oil, a scent that to my olfactory senses has an earthy musk that is reminiscent of something that is dire need of a damn good bath. But hey, read into that what you will, and no doubt you will. But as for past hippy bashing, I suspect you are confusing me with someone else (Iain perhaps? As I recall he really doesn't like hippies but that is true of a few others around here too), I just don't buy into that mystical mind-expanding drug bollocks and have little time for anyone that does - my disregard of hippy culture is merely collateral damage as a consequence of my complete dismissal of drug culture wherever it's found. I regard hippies in much the same was as I do punks - the real thing only lasted for a very short while yet its effect lasted much longer - what followed looked like punk and behaved like punk but the true essence of what made it punk eluded them and most of the romanticised guff that's written about them is not worth the paper it's written on. While I never actually said that the hippy movement ended in 1968... ... ... [waiting for that to register] ... I said it was dead and buried by the time the Freak Scene replaced it in the late 60s/early 70s... a slight dramatic exaggeration perhaps, but post-1968 (which means some time after 1968) the hippy movement had gone into decline and apart from small enclaves that refused to give up it was for all intents and purposes over by the turn of the decade. Sure there are still a few tiedyehards around today, just as there are a few geriatric mods and middle-aged goths refusing to admit that it's all over bar the crying.

Neil Young eh? (hey, hey, my my). Well, I'm sure he'll remember it for you if reading an article or two is too much. I guess he'll get the flowers in rifle barrel metaphor so perhaps he will remember each of the four students being shot and killed after metaphorically placing flowers in the gun barrels of guardsman's rifles as a protest against the Vietnam war. (or perhaps you really did mean 'riffles' and that's why I missed the metaphorical meaning). Cool name-drop though *doffs cap* - I met that Paul McCartney chap once...

But (and it's a big butt) - 99% of all this crap is irrelevant when we are talking about Sgt Pepper and the foundation of Progressive Rock. What was happening (or had happened) in America was inconsequential and of little relevance to what was happening in London. I opined on how and why the underground music scene in and around Notting Hill Gate became so important during the time from Sgt Pepper through to In the Court of the Crimson King (while ItCotCK wasn't recorded in that area, Island Records was based there) and beyond. I'm sorry that America and the American hippy movement wasn't part of all that, and I'm really sorry that this is so London-centric but that's how it goes - Ladbroke Grove was central to the London counterculture but it just wasn't a hippy scene and that's all there is to it. 
We all say things at times that we feel are innocent and innocuous. We mean no harm by them. I do it and so do you. There's no imagination necessary for that. That was the point of my ire. Tit for tat, if you will.
As far as Notting Hill Gate being a central hub of the underground, as well as certain other parts of London, that only holds water if said bands actually liked each other. The Beatles hated everyone except Hendrix and Hendrix himself was dismissive of Floyd. Did they catch snippets of performances at shared venue? Yes. Did they actually care about what they heard (or saw)? That's debatable due to their constant search for individuality at a time when that trait was most celebrated.
 
And I still feel that your stripping of the London hippie scene from the underground is the same as stripping chaff from wheat, but I don't feel that we'll ever come to an agreement on that. However, as this is flogging a dead mare, I agree to return to the posted topic and put this to rest, as you stated.
 
Btw, the only reason Neil still talks to me is because I'm the only person he knows that thinks that Bert Jansch was God. Yeah, musical tastes are that rare and exclusive, unfortunately.


Edited by SteveG - May 17 2017 at 05:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2017 at 04:36
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

It was not a hippie scene, really


Tim, are you sure that you're not a robot. Only a cyborg would have posted this image. Wink

Edited by SteveG - May 17 2017 at 05:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2017 at 06:16
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

As far as Notting Hill Gate being a central hub of the underground, as well certain other parts of London, that only holds water if said bands actually liked each other. The Beatles hated everyone except Hendrix and Hendrix himself was dismissive of Floyd. Did they catch snippets of performances at shared venue? Yes. Did they care about what what they heard (or saw)? That's debatable due their constant search for individuality at a time when that trait was most celebrated.
Granted, all those individual things are true (as they are both well documented), yet one band liking another doth not a scene make but add in everything else that was happening in that area at the time and it becomes a lot less black and white. Bands don't have to like each other for it to hold water, that's not how scenes work and they certainly aren't held together by bucket loads of mutual appreciation. Place Floyd and the Beatles in Abbey Road studios at the same time in 1967 (from February to April) then slot in Soft Machine between Hendrix and Floyd/Barrett then Hendrix's one-liner dismissive comment of Floyd (which was aimed at their take on Psychedelic Rock, the quip: "Johnny B. Goode with the wrong chords" wasn't actually about the Chuck Berry song) isn't the death blow it first appears to be. Influence is hard to gauge unless there are direct references in the music so, as you say, when everyone is striving for individuality then we're only ever going to find circumstantial evidence. Circumstance exists by virtue of the close environment they found themselves in, if not directly then by mutual association and breathing the same creative atmosphere. When you take all this into consideration and look at what exploded out of that London scene over a very short period of time then trying to connect the dots between one artist and another by finding intermediate points in between takes on a greater significance when trying to form a more cohesive picture of the whole. 

In one of his last interviews Hendrix hinted that he could be doing something on similar lines to what Floyd were doing, which is an odd thing to say for someone who was dismissive of them three years earlier but Hendrix was a very astute guy. We now know from the Cry of Love recordings it was nothing of the sort, but hey-ho, artists like giving evasive answers in interviews.
 
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

And I still feel you that your stripping of the London hippie scene from the underground is the same as stripping chaff from wheat, but I don't feel that we'll ever come to an agreement on that. However, as this is flogging a dead mare, I agree to return to the posted topic and put this to rest, as you stated.
I'm not stripping the London hippy scene from the underground music scene - that happened all by itself, it just quickly morphed into something else, not that it was ever a carbon copy of the American hippy movement anyway, more a swinging sixties pastiche of it.
 

What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2017 at 08:50
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

It was not a hippie scene, really


Tim, are you sure that you're not a robot. Only a cyborg would have posted this image. Wink
No Steve I am not "sure". I leave that to the experts. One thing is for sure I will have to say I am not a robot to get this posted. Interesting thread, chock full of oneupmanship. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2017 at 10:31
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

No Steve I am not "sure". I leave that to the experts. One thing is for sure I will have to say I am not a robot to get this posted. Interesting thread, chock full of oneupmanship. 
Well, I'm not sure who won the battle, but I damn sure the captchas won the war. Dead Just bury me with my boots on.

Edited by SteveG - May 17 2017 at 10:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2017 at 14:35
Can anyone do anything about this Captcha sh*t...?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2017 at 22:15
I know for some of The Beatles dissenters it's tough to give them credit which you are only fooling yourselves to be honest. 

I consider "A Day In the Life" to be prog-rock. I also think this is the song that influenced Robert Fripp to get into rock music. People seem to forget these songs were recorded in late 1966 and early 1967 and there was no such thing as Progressive Rock or Art Rock. So in a way they were the pivotal act. Sorry Zappa fans but he just did not have the songwriting chops or the popularity to have the mass the influence of The Beatles. 

One more thing is appreciate the talent in writing the songs they did. It's not easy to just come with songs that are great and as original as "Eleanor Rigby" or "A Day In the Life".   




Edited by NYSPORTSFAN - May 19 2017 at 22:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2017 at 08:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

It was not a hippie scene, really


That's a stock image (badly staged at that) and not from Ladbroke Grove, so what's your point? 
I don't know if it was staged, neither do you. I don't know where it was from, neither do you. I don't have to have a point, all I need is proof I am not a robot. Let's get back to the history of hippies, you all seem to be experts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2017 at 09:13
I believe that having some first hand experience gives one a leg up on a subject, as the best that those who weren't present can do is claim that those who were there remember events incorrectly. Those not present also fail at understanding the underlying subtitles of the subject.

Edited by SteveG - May 20 2017 at 09:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2017 at 09:21
It seems like yesterday I was hanging on St marks place, smelling patchouli wafting from the head shops. Those were exciting times and the Beatles were definitely a big part of it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2017 at 09:31
The East Village was indeed very cool at the time, but I was more exposed to the folk thing and coffee houses at the time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2017 at 05:18
Everybody conveniently chooses to forget Zappa's "Absolutely Free" album (an all time favorite of mine), which came out the SAME year as Sgt Pepper and is actually COMPOSITIONALLY COMPLEX, TECHNICALLY DEMANDING, STRUCTURALLY progressive, EVERYTHING....but there's lots of political satire. 

 
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2017 at 09:36
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Can anyone do anything about this Captcha sh*t...?

Just like the answer to this thread post.......NO!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2017 at 14:40
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Can anyone do anything about this Captcha sh*t...?

Just like the answer to this thread post.......NO!!

Ok then
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2017 at 22:09
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Everybody conveniently chooses to forget Zappa's "Absolutely Free" album (an all time favorite of mine), which came out the SAME year as Sgt Pepper and is actually COMPOSITIONALLY COMPLEX, TECHNICALLY DEMANDING, STRUCTURALLY progressive, EVERYTHING....but there's lots of political satire. 

 

I didn’t forget, but I choose to not acknowledge Absolutely Free because it’s Zappa and I do a good job of ignoring what he’s done anyway. LOL


Edited by Mirror Image - May 31 2017 at 22:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2017 at 22:22
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Everybody conveniently chooses to forget Zappa's "Absolutely Free" album (an all time favorite of mine), which came out the SAME year as Sgt Pepper and is actually COMPOSITIONALLY COMPLEX, TECHNICALLY DEMANDING, STRUCTURALLY progressive, EVERYTHING....but there's lots of political satire. 

 

I didn’t forget, but I choose to not acknowledge Absolutely Free because it’s Zappa and I do a good job of ignoring what he’s done anyway. LOL

Regardless on personal tastes that comment is as logical as it gets when it comes to historical context: if I hate it, it doesn't exist
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2017 at 22:31
Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Originally posted by Thatfabulousalien Thatfabulousalien wrote:

Everybody conveniently chooses to forget Zappa's "Absolutely Free" album (an all time favorite of mine), which came out the SAME year as Sgt Pepper and is actually COMPOSITIONALLY COMPLEX, TECHNICALLY DEMANDING, STRUCTURALLY progressive, EVERYTHING....but there's lots of political satire. 

 

I didn’t forget, but I choose to not acknowledge Absolutely Free because it’s Zappa and I do a good job of ignoring what he’s done anyway. LOL

Regardless on personal tastes that comment is as logical as it gets when it comes to historical context: if I hate it, it doesn't exist

I’m joking around, Alien. Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2017 at 08:18
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Can anyone do anything about this Captcha sh*t...?

Precisely what I’ve been wondering. It’s getting to the point where posting here is a chore instead of something I enjoy. Is there a way to contact the owner of the forum or whoever designed it and request them to do away with this Captcha crap?
“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2017 at 08:57
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Can anyone do anything about this Captcha sh*t...?

Precisely what I’ve been wondering. It’s getting to the point where posting here is a chore instead of something I enjoy. Is there a way to contact the owner of the forum or whoever designed it and request them to do away with this Captcha crap?

A lot of discussion about it here



Edited by Jeffro - June 01 2017 at 08:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2017 at 09:20
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Can anyone do anything about this Captcha sh*t...?

Precisely what I’ve been wondering. It’s getting to the point where posting here is a chore instead of something I enjoy. Is there a way to contact the owner of the forum or whoever designed it and request them to do away with this Captcha crap?

It's been a chore for several months......Find another site to enjoy and maybe in the meantime this one will get fixed.
What this site has been lacking the past several years is more members, that feeds spirited conversations and threads that take a life of their own. Seems here they die after 2-3 pages.......There are sites where threads can go on for pages and pages, within a day you are looking at 4-5 pages. For me what this does is keeps me engaged in a thread, cause if you leave it you will need to read a ton of pages to catch up.

I can leave a thread here and come back couple days later and maybe see 4-5 new posts, not too engaging....Or maybe that says something about prog music, dunno. 

Also, the thread answer is still NO!


Edited by Catcher10 - June 01 2017 at 09:21
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