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Topic ClosedYour living standards

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Poll Question: Would you accept a drop in living standards..?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
2 [8.00%]
8 [32.00%]
2 [8.00%]
8 [32.00%]
4 [16.00%]
1 [4.00%]
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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2017 at 08:48
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

i think that we all should be like Norwegians.
Be grumpy vikings who live on fish and potatoes? 
True Norwegian Black Metal. I could live like that. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2017 at 08:50
It's curious that the country with one of the highest standards of living in the world (at least in a sh*t-owned-per-capita ratio) is the one where there are millions of people who think taxes are theft and basically one step short of full blown communism.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2017 at 09:39
I still want to live like a Norwegian. Canada is a dump.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2017 at 09:50
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I might be persuaded to give up a small portion of income for a greater good, but not things like my home, possessions, etc.   And I'd want to be sure the money would reach its intended targets, which I would be doubtful of.

 
As someone of fairly good health, single and having never spend one day on the dole, I am one of the main contributors class (tax & welfare systems) and lesser beneficiaries of all these public welfare programs; I'm not so sure I'd like to give more, if I don't have some kind of return...
 
Example?  To avoid having to take a day off for the plumber to fix my furnace, having some of them benefiters (someone I know and trust) with plenty of free time to house-sit, so I keep producing income (and of course taxes). Just to know that solidarity can indeed be sometimes a two-way street, you know.  While doing this "service", they can read book, watch TV and even help themselves to a beer or two while doing me a "favour".  
 
I'm not sure this is too much to ask.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2017 at 23:18
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I might be persuaded to give up a small portion of income for a greater good, but not things like my home, possessions, etc.   And I'd want to be sure the money would reach its intended targets, which I would be doubtful of.

 
As someone of fairly good health, single and having never spend one day on the dole, I am one of the main contributors class (tax & welfare systems) and lesser beneficiaries of all these public welfare programs; I'm not so sure I'd like to give more, if I don't have some kind of return...
 
Example?  To avoid having to take a day off for the plumber to fix my furnace, having some of them benefiters (someone I know and trust) with plenty of free time to house-sit, so I keep producing income (and of course taxes). Just to know that solidarity can indeed be sometimes a two-way street, you know.  While doing this "service", they can read book, watch TV and even help themselves to a beer or two while doing me a "favour".  
 
I'm not sure this is too much to ask.
So, basically you want an unemployed person to be your bitch...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2017 at 00:22
My current living standard aren't luxurious but I'm coping. 

Living in a flat littered with music scores, sleeping on a mattress (no bed), no desks. 
Luckily I have wifi and a laptop but I have to sacrifice for my education..right...
Classical music isn't dead, it's more alive than it's ever been. It's just not on MTV.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2017 at 00:32
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

It's curious that the country with one of the highest standards of living in the world (at least in a sh*t-owned-per-capita ratio) is the one where there are millions of people who think taxes are theft and basically one step short of full blown communism.  
It's curious that in one of the wealthiest countries in the world with one of the highest standards of living in the world 43 million people live in poverty... that's the same as the combined population of Texas and Florida, or the entire population of Argentina. 

Not that I'd single-out the USA alone here, several European countries have a similar percentage of their population as living below the poverty line, though most are significantly better. In the UK, where we sit pretty much in the middle between the best and the worst in the EU, that's still 13 million people, or more than the populations of Scotland, Wales and Ireland (north & south) added together. Japan, with the third largest economy in the world, has 20 million living in poverty but because it is a pride/shame-culture poverty isn't quite as obviously visible as it is in other countries. Of course poverty is a relative value based on national average income so someone in the USA earning the Japanese average wage would be regarded as living in poverty. 

The disparity between the ultra-rich and the dirt-poor is, as we all know, phenomenal in the USA but the inequality between average wage ($24/hr) and minimum wage ($7.25/hr) is just as mind-boggling such that 50% of the population earn 75% of the total national income which is why that top half of the population pay 97% of the net income taxes. Unfortunately the notion that for the top 50% to play less tax can only happen if the bottom 50% are paid higher wages is also seen as full-blown communism. 
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2017 at 01:33
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Would you be prepared to accept a drop in living standards for the "greater good" In other words would you happily surrender more of your income in taxation to support those with less than you in the name of addressing income inequality, and addressing the challenges of poverty.
Do you trust government to clearly define what the "greater good" really is, and not to use your tax revenue to simply fund tax cuts for their friends, the "actual rich"

Option 3. Thank Christ I got a job that I do not detest. And I can barely save $200 every week. 

And no, I do not trust the government, but I do what I have to do before every April 15.   

Honestly, I find myself quite ignorant of the aforementioned inequality and the challenges. I did hear, however, that in big cities they pay some people amounts below the minimum wage. If that is true, my question is this: who is going to deal with this issue in the United States? Simply addressing it isn't enough. 




Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 05 2017 at 02:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2017 at 01:47
I guess that since I voted economically to the left-hand side of where the Dutch government is/was in the recent elections, that would implicitly mean I'm willing to throw some more into reserves, and I guess that's true. I'd be the last to get patriottic, I mean I don't need to be proud of something I didn't take any part in, but I think my government has mostly proven to me they can get things done with the provided confidence and investments. And so if the government shares my goals to invest in green energy, give lower class children the degrees they deserve, create some more nature in the countryside AND keep the economy flowing at a responsible rate, they will do so way more efficiently and effectively than any charity, organisation or independent institution, with all the pointless advertising and protesting, could do.
So, first option.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2017 at 02:28
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I might be persuaded to give up a small portion of income for a greater good, but not things like my home, possessions, etc.   And I'd want to be sure the money would reach its intended targets, which I would be doubtful of.

 
As someone of fairly good health, single and having never spend one day on the dole, I am one of the main contributors class (tax & welfare systems) and lesser beneficiaries of all these public welfare programs; I'm not so sure I'd like to give more, if I don't have some kind of return...
 
Example?  To avoid having to take a day off for the plumber to fix my furnace, having some of them benefiters (someone I know and trust) with plenty of free time to house-sit, so I keep producing income (and of course taxes). Just to know that solidarity can indeed be sometimes a two-way street, you know.  While doing this "service", they can read book, watch TV and even help themselves to a beer or two while doing me a "favour".  
 
I'm not sure this is too much to ask.
So, basically you want an unemployed person to be your bitch...
 
I'm not thinking of a recently unemployed person, but more the "professional unemployed" - one that is not really looking (or even pretending to look) for work and hasn't worked for years/decades. If spending one afternoon is giving a hand to someone that feeds the system that fed him in the recent decades is too much to ask for, then I can partially understand tax evasion. I mean I scratch your back, you can also once in a while scratch mine. Why is it that most crossroad guards at the entrance of schools are retired active workers, and not unemployed people, doing the minimum to help out society?
 
Even as a leftist, it's kind of tiring to be always the guy who always contributes most and never gets anything in return. Forced or unforced solidarity must be sometimes a two-way street
 
I don't like the idea of forced workfare, but obviously
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2017 at 15:25
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

I'm not thinking of a recently unemployed person, but more the "professional unemployed" - one that is not really looking (or even pretending to look) for work and hasn't worked for years/decades. If spending one afternoon is giving a hand to someone that feeds the system that fed him in the recent decades is too much to ask for, then I can partially understand tax evasion. I mean I scratch your back, you can also once in a while scratch mine. Why is it that most crossroad guards at the entrance of schools are retired active workers, and not unemployed people, doing the minimum to help out society?
 
Even as a leftist, it's kind of tiring to be always the guy who always contributes most and never gets anything in return. Forced or unforced solidarity must be sometimes a two-way street
 
I don't like the idea of forced workfare, but obviously
As strange as it may seem I take the similar view to you but not quite from the same angle. The problem of long-term unemployment and the "professional unemployed" needs to be addressed but do not see how your solution is of any practical value. 

The reason school crossing guards (colloquially known as a lollypop men and ladies here because of the sign they use to stop traffic) are predominantly retired people is because they want to do the job to earn an extra few quid to supplement their pensions so taking that potential for extra income from them to pay someone else is little more than pushing peas around a dinner plate. As will be come evident towards the end of this post/essay, this is the tip of quite a large iceberg.
 
You cannot predict the future so I tend to regard all forms of social welfare as a Pay It Forward system. I have already benefited from the free education that tax payers of the 1960s and 1970s paid for; I have made use of the free healthcare that everyone's taxes and NI contributions has provide during my 60 years on this planet; and fully intend to take every penny of assistance the state gives to OAPs once I retire in six years time. Hopefully I will never need to make use of the welfare system and take unemployment hand-outs but I sure as hell want it to be there to catch me if I ever do. 

The way I see it is I've paid for the healthcare, education and everything else that the state provides for those who need it now on the understanding that it is there for me and my family if and when we need it in the future. I do not expect those receiving that support now to have to earn their upkeep anymore than I would want future tax-payers to expect me to provide a social service in return for my state pension and free prescription medication.

The long-term unemployed, the benefit scroungers, fraudulent claimers and the "professional unemployed" are a small percentage of those who are entitled to social support. In fiscal terms the cost of benefit payments to that small group of people in the UK is around £1.2billion which sound like a phenomenal amount of money but that is only 0.7% of the total benefit budget and is actually comparable to the amount of money the government fails to pay-out through clerical error and people not claiming all they are entitled to. If we could sort out both sides of the equation then the net result would be for all intents and purposes zero. As a percentage, actual benefit fraud equates to less than 2% of total fraud (including tax evasion and identity theft, but excluding systematic corporate accounting creativity of the likes of Starbucks and Amazon) across the whole UK economy (so the figures are probably not that dissimilar anywhere else in Europe), tax fraud accounts for 30 times more than benefit fraud. You don't see the tabloid press shouting too loudly about that for some reason (he said sarcastically).

Those who abuse the welfare system are an easy diversionary tactic for journalists and politicians who want to dismantle it because people are willing to believe the problem is far worse than it actually is, they can use it to demonise all who make use of the system and justify punitive and draconian measures that arbitrarily and indiscriminately punishes all of them. There is shame enough in having to claim benefits to stay alive without suffering the scorn of those who ought to know better.

The reality is unemployment can only get worse, it can never get better and it will never get better. The inescapable consequence of this is the number of long-term unemployed will continue to increase, not just in the developed countries of Europe, but as this century progresses, in the developing countries too. That isn't a cynically pessimistic prediction, that is a logical consequence of progress, automation and increasing populations - the concept of full employment has never been a reality (ever, in the history of the World) and the idea of full-time employment is fast becoming untenable. 

The bottom line is we cannot simply retrain those who were previously employed in defunct occupations to do completely different jobs because there just isn't enough of those jobs for the people who are currently doing them, let alone take on more employees swapping over from diminishing professions. The idea that the unemployed could be re-skilled for modern professions has always been a convenient but unrealistic expectation.

Which basically means that for menial unskilled jobs the employers can employ whoever will take the minimum wage (and rely on the government paying out supplementary benefits to make-up the difference); for semi-skilled jobs the employers can shop around for anyone who will accept zero-hour contracts; and skilled and/or professional people will be convinced that self-employed contract working is the only viable option, which then favours the more experienced and those skilled at self-marketing over the better qualified.

The long-term solution is something that no one wants to consider because it means a radical volte face on everything we've been led to believe as normal for the past 150 years. And that's the other reality that we have to learn to accept - the modern idea of work, full-time employment and the working week is only 150 years old, and it certainly isn't "normal".


Edited by Dean - April 05 2017 at 15:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2017 at 22:42
i Have accepted it and expect it to keep dropping.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2017 at 10:02
The whole planet sucks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2017 at 10:21
^ I don't blame the planet, just the people living on it. :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2017 at 11:18
Originally posted by Kepler62 Kepler62 wrote:

The whole planet sucks.
Ah right. So you're one of those "gravity deniers" then eh? Okay, if the earth sucks how come birds can fly and elephants can't eh? Hmm? Answer me than then... Stern Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2017 at 12:16
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

^ I don't blame the planet, just the people living on it. :)

I totally agree with this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2017 at 13:02
Is there any govt that can be trusted?? #2 but we all do that now in most cases......
I prefer to give money directly to a non-profit that helps people in need. Not giving to some big "corporation" like United Way, I keep my donations local so I can actually see my money working......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 06 2017 at 13:07
No country can move forward by stealing people's money. Many of my friends used to have a shop back in the day, but since we all pay nearly 60%/70% of our salary in taxes they had to close, because no one has money to spend on leisure, leaving those who worked for them jobless.
Businesses closing means less work (REAL private work, I mean). Those who have a lot of money in Argentina are in the public sector and are, basically, parasites.
Half the people live on the money the govt steals to the other half, either by being a public worker or living on welfare. The recipients get paid more if they have more kids, so the power of the left is increasing at alarming speeds and we are in the brink of a civil war. Nowadays, close to 35% of the country lives on welfare and they organize strikes every day in order to ask for more money.
Of course, tech goods and goods in general can cost up to five times what they cost in the USA. High taxes and less money mean less demand. For instance, we have to pay close to one thousand dollars if we want a PS4.

Those who are socialists, please move to Argentina. You'll have a house and money each month by resting on a sofa.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2017 at 07:37
Originally posted by TeleStrat TeleStrat wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

^ I don't blame the planet, just the Republicans and all the neo-fascists, bigots, racists, religious zealots, and climate change deniers living on it. :)

I totally agree with this.


same here LOLWink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2017 at 08:37
^  Hmm...that is not the post I agreed with. 
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