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Topic ClosedHaven't Nazi Party done any good work really?

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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2017 at 02:09
I know exactly what the Reichxskonkordat says. let me explain my summation.

first of all there is the safety promise for the cleric. then there comes a list of things were the 3rd Reich will not interfere, which you can also read as "these are the Church duties". and you will notice the absence of "critical remarks about the 3rd Reich policies".

I certainly know of "Mit brennender Sorge", and it is a good example of what I mean. the encyclica speaks in very general terms - Pius XI is beating around the bush. the two strongest sentences he comes up with are these:

"
In the furrows, where We tried to sow the seed of a sincere peace, other men - the "enemy" of Holy Scripture - oversowed the cockle of distrust, unrest, hatred, defamation, of a determined hostility overt or veiled, fed from many sources and wielding many tools, against Christ and His Church".

"At the same time, anyone must acknowledge, not without surprise and reprobation, how the other contracting party emasculated the terms of the treaty, distorted their meaning, and eventually considered its more or less official violation as a normal policy".

this is extremely vague and could mean anything.

as to the famous Christmas speech: indeed, this is where Pius XII finally spoke out openly. but by then it was too late. principiis obsta


Edited by BaldJean - February 08 2017 at 08:12


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2017 at 02:39
OK, one by one.
Obviously when the Nazi party came up, there was already a history of left wing thought in Germany and elsewhere, Marx, social democrats, communists.

Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:



What was the german socialist viewpoint? (aka. main traits of @ssholes)

-German workers were exploited and greedy jews controlled the banks, the media and the arts. Also, "less skilled" immigrants (romanians, poles, gypsies) stole jobs from the germans.

Hitler accused the Marxists (i.e., the left wingers) of being controlled by "greedy jews".
The communists and social democrats were by and large (admittedly with exceptions) internationalist and against racism, at least in comparison to all other parties. (This is about the German political landscape at the time; I don't deny that there was racism in some communist countries.)
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-The State must control the economy and human relations in order to stop capitalism from "polluting" Germany

Hitler and the Nazis were very ambiguous about the economy and by and large very incompetent and contradictory in this respect. Certainly they were supported in the 1930s by German industry and businessmen, and they kept a good relationship with most of them throughout.
 
Quote
-Animals had more rights than some human beigns
-Most environmentally conscious regime in history.

This has nothing to do with socialism; socialist thought at the time was not interested in this.
Quote
-Expropriation of private property

Again, the Nazis have a very mixed record in this respect.
Quote
-Control of the media
-Censorship and racism
-Prosecution of freethinkers and people who opposed the regime
-Love of physical activity and healthy lifestyle
-Support of atheism and pagan movements (like wicca)
etc.

Fair enough, most of these were practised by dictatorships all over the world left and right.
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since socialism is all about genocide.

As an ideology it certainly isn't. Not at all. Obviously there are examples of communist countries practicing genocide, but a better characterisation of this is to say that these were communists using fascist ideas rather than the fascists being actually socialist. Long before Hitler there was a history of racial hatred and ideas pointing at genocide from the right wing (much of this, particularly right wing antsemitism and nationalism in Austria before the first world war influenced Hitler before he came to power); none of this is part of socialist ideology.
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  The main focus was expansionism and economy: capitalism and mixed economy against central planning and control.

As written before, the Nazis were very ambiguous on economy and have been accused for good reason by incompetence and inconsistency in this respect. If you read "Mein Kampf" you'll find that there is really astonishingly little on the economy. This wasn't something Hitler cared a lot about.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2017 at 07:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
At least some influence on pizza. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2017 at 09:55
Dear Damo, your thread reminds the subject of a conference I attended 2 weeks ago at the Shoah Memorial in Paris about the representation of the Jewish genocide in comics/BD/manga/fumetti/tebeos/historietas (choose your local terms) and, more precisely, a communication about the representation of WW2 in mangas.
I could try to make an English version of the notes I've taken then.

Oh, by the way, if someone is asking, I could tell the Nazis gave a cause for one of my great-grand-father which enroled to fight on the Eastern Front as a member of the Legion des Volontaires Français contre le Bolchevisme (Legion of French Volunteers against Bolchevism).
Not sure if we can call this "good work", yet...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2017 at 13:43
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I know exactly what the Reichxskonkordat says. let me explain my summation.

first of all there is the safety promise for the cleric. then there comes a list of things were the 3rd Reich will not interfere, which you can also read as "these are the Church duties". and you will notice the absence of "critical remarks about the 3rd Reich policies".

I certainly know of "Mit brennender Sorge", and it is a good example of what I mean. the encyclica speaks in very general terms - Pius XI is beating around the bush. the two strongest sentences he comes up with are these:

"
In the furrows, where We tried to sow the seed of a sincere peace, other men - the "enemy" of Holy Scripture - oversowed the cockle of distrust, unrest, hatred, defamation, of a determined hostility overt or veiled, fed from many sources and wielding many tools, against Christ and His Church".

"At the same time, anyone must acknowledge, not without surprise and reprobation, how the other contracting party emasculated the terms of the treaty, distorted their meaning, and eventually considered its more or less official violation as a normal policy".

this is extremely vague and could mean anything.

as to the famous Christmas speech: indeed, this is where Pius XII finally spoke out openly. but by then it was too late. principiis obsta

How easy is to talk when things ended.

Have you noticed where the Vatican is located?


In the center of Nazi territory.

You know what separated the vatican from Nazi Territory?

Thousands of soldiers?
Weapons and cannons?
At least great walls?

NO...This separated the Vatican and the refugees from the Nazis

Resultado de imagen para Vatican white line rome

A white line drawn in the floor.

You can be a hero when it's only your life at stake.

But when 130'000,000 Catholics and 860,000 jews depend on the neutrality of the Vatican...You would need to be a moron to challenge the Nazis and let all that people die.

Everybody who has no responsibility  is a hero, specially when things have passed....But wen other people life depends of your words, you need to be wise.

At the end, the catholics survived and Hitler ended with a bullet...Who won appart from Catholics?

The 860,000 jews that survived.

BTW: Not even all the allies + the Red Cross + Schindler + all the other churches, saved almost a million jews at the risk of their own life.

That's something to applaud. 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 08 2017 at 14:06
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2017 at 14:00
Three days later and this is still the strangest thread topic you will ever see.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2017 at 06:07
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
At least some influence on pizza. 
 
Not very likelyWink
 
However, the Romans certainly were excellent decadence teachers ...
But we certainly have already surpassed our mentors by now, as we're now in the equivalent 45BC
 
We're about to enter the end of democracy and have emperors (Trump, Putin, Orban, Kaczinski, BoJo The Clown, Farage etc... even maybe Le Pen)... and the real fun will beginDeadOuchPinch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2017 at 17:32
^ Yeah I think pizza is basically Greek, much like most Roman cooking (hides from Raffaella) .


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2017 at 23:17
^ I thought pizza was invented in Chicago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 10 2017 at 23:58
^ yeah; Deep-dish   Dead

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 00:15
^ even philistines gotta eat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 04:24
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ I thought pizza was invented in Chicago.

no, that was Swiss cheese. it was invented during the prohibition. only genuine with bullet holes


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 05:16
^ much traditional European cuisine didn't exist before Columbus sailed the oceans blue. Pizza sans tomato is just cheese on toast and you cannot make tortilla española without breaking eggs potatoes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 05:52
To Lewian:

Right wing killed more people through history...yeah, sure. Italian and german socialists are not really socialists...yeah, sure.
You've said many things that are flat out wrong...and you are comparing a civil war and posterior military deaths that happened inside a country (Austria) who had lost its autonomy with the actual killing of millions of unarmed innocents in a wide array of countries and every single time communism was tried.
Btw, I never said Hitler was a marxist. I said he was a staunch socialist.

To everyone:

The thing some of you don't understand is that you can live your "communist dream" in a free country. Go right now and gather thousands of people, pool your money and resources together and live your communal life. I'm all for it! Why don't you do it ASAP? Just keep me out of it, man. Don't point a gun at me, don't take my money and don't make me work for you for free.
In a communist country I can't have private property, I can't choose were to work, I can't help others and I can't live my life. I have to do everything for the leader or the community.
That's the difference. You can be a commie in a free country, I can't be a libertarian inside a communist country. Communism is all about being an egomaniac, stealing resources, and making everyone equal...to you!
You don't want to live in a community right now, but you want to force me into one. How can that be done without force? How can I give you my home and money, how can I leave my family behind in order to gather rocks twenty hours a day if not by coercion? I mean, really... to say it can be achieved without force and without killing everyone who does not agree with you is childish.
I sometimes don't know how to live my life...and some of you think you can manage the lives of millions of people thorugh slavery. This is not a math problem we are talking about, but human lives.


Anyway, I'm done with this topic. Cheers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 09:06
well.. they did save the whole of continental Europe from a half century or more of complete Soviet domination..thus changing history as we know it today... as it was the Soviets still got half of it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 11:24
Mussolini invented pizza. #facts
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 11:27

PIZZA HISTORY


 

Almost 3000 years of food evolution has taken place for the pizza pie to reach its current delicious state today. Although flat breads have been around for 6000 years, the word “pizziare” started appearing in Italian writings as far back as 1000 B.C. The word pizza itself is believed to have originated from an “Old Italian” word meaning “a point,” which in turn became the Italian word “pizziare,” which means to pinch, or to pluck.

Tomatoes were first introduced to Italy from South America in 1522. At first the tomato was believed to be poisonous. Fortunately, the poorer peasants of the region finally overcame their doubts about tomatoes in the 17th century and began adding it to the bread dough, and the first pizzas were created.


As the popularity of the tomato became widespread, mozzarella cheese was slowly gaining ground. Mozzarella had become available in Italy only after water buffalo were imported from India in the 7th century, (mozzarella was first made with water buffalo milk). Its popularity grew very slowly until the last half of the 18th century, but the cheese and tomatoes did not meet on a pizza until 1889.

In 1889, an Italian tavern owner named Don Raffaele Esposito developed a pizza featuring tomatoes, mozzarella cheese and basil – ingredients bearing the colors of the Italian flag. He named it the Margherita Pizza, after the Queen of Italy, Margherita Teresa Giovanni. Thus, modern-day tomato-and-cheese pizza was born.

In the later half of the 19th century, pizza migrated to America with the Italians. By the turn of the century, the Italian immigrants had begun to open their own bakeries and were selling groceries as well as pizza. Gennaro Lombardi opened the first true U.S. pizzeria in 1905 at 53 1/3 Spring Street in New York City, a part of town known as “Little Italy.”

You wanted facts, you got facts.



Edited by SteveG - February 11 2017 at 11:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 13:04
The Old Italian word meaning "point" is "pizzo", and it is still used in some Southern Italian dialects (my father did use it). However, the verb is "pizzicare", not "pizziare". Anyway, Wikipedia (and other sources) report a different etymology of the word.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 13:27
Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:



To everyone:

The thing some of you don't understand is that you can live your "communist dream" in a free country. Go right now and gather thousands of people, pool your money and resources together and live your communal life. I'm all for it! Why don't you do it ASAP? Just keep me out of it, man. Don't point a gun at me, don't take my money and don't make me work for you for free.
In a communist country I can't have private property, I can't choose were to work, I can't help others and I can't live my life. I have to do everything for the leader or the community.
That's the difference. You can be a commie in a free country, I can't be a libertarian inside a communist country. Communism is all about being an egomaniac, stealing resources, and making everyone equal...to you!
You don't want to live in a community right now, but you want to force me into one. How can that be done without force? How can I give you my home and money, how can I leave my family behind in order to gather rocks twenty hours a day if not by coercion? I mean, really... to say it can be achieved without force and without killing everyone who does not agree with you is childish.
I sometimes don't know how to live my life...and some of you think you can manage the lives of millions of people thorugh slavery. This is not a math problem we are talking about, but human lives.


Anyway, I'm done with this topic. Cheers.

Because....few people want that? Most don't wanna point a gun at you and certainly not make you work for free. You are just very very biased, and I think this is why you see everything not strict laissez-faire as "socialist" and also why you confused some of Hitler's rhetoric and his real life actions, which were not socialist in any real way. Unless you (which I think you do) just call everything done by gov intervention socialist which is still not correct but whatever. The bias of your views also turns your debate into a bit of nonsense, taking your home? Managing millions through slavery? Dude, what on Earth are you going on about? I said before I don't even disagree with much of the words, just you should use statism and not call it all leftism which you then jump lump all under communism. That's....nuttyLOL

And I sure as HELL don't wanna go live in some commune away from society. It's the die hard libertarians that want thatLOL I like most people understand society is good, and to live in a functioning society you gotta pay taxes, live by rules you didn't agree to, etc etc I hate to say it but it sounds like you are the one who should pool resources with a few like minded people and go live in a commune somewhere. I sincerely would not stop you and would wish you well.

Especially since an attempt at that once before failed because having a society of people who all don't want to fully participate in a collective entity and may not be willing to do things for other if it impacts them....is likely not gunna work. Especially since you'd not be able to use our roads, electricity or any tax funded service. Tis only fair, if you wanna be free from taxes and coercion OK but on the flip side you then cant mooch off usSmile


Edited by JJLehto - February 11 2017 at 13:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2017 at 13:41
The real irony of what you say, Upbeat Tango Monday, is to take all your points to their logical conclusion would be the death of business and capitalism. I am dead serious.
Capitalism, business, growth all that needs a stable society, under a central government that has actual legitimacy and force. Otherwise we have the state of nature.

A true freedom. There is nothing, even laws, to make you do anything. If you can take X, cool. Kill someone for their stuff OK its pure survival of the fittest. A real meritocracy. AND this means, besides a horrid life that would cause everyone to run away, there would be no business, no capitalism. There'd be no work even! Surely no people to be kind to. Your survival against the constant warring is all there would be

So ya know, we can't just go with "No coercion!" "Don't make me do xyz" all those generic bullet points because that's silly. If you want a market capitalist system, all that is illogical.
THATS were the issue comes in by the way. That state and coercion is needed to some degree so market capitalism can flourish, but then it can be used by either the powerful/wealthy as their vehicle, or can be used by the people to be exploited (thought that never happens). The people may eventually demand more say, rights, piece of the pie. Which powers that be tend to refuse.
The way capitalists managed to overthrow Feudalism can lead us back to Feudalism. Unless smart business leaders and politicians understand the need to give up a little bit to keep everyone appeased. If not, which you seem not to be a fan of, enjoy the old school laissez-faire vs fascism vs socialism war and a neo feudal society :)
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