Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:04 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
Well, some of them perhaps, but certainly not "all christians". In the Soviet Union between 12-20 million christians were "got rid of" over a 70 year period, the rest of the christian population (which was most of them - 80% of the population was christian prior to the revolution) simply kept quiet or just wrote "none" on official forms. The same thing would have happened in Germany as even a party of completely deranged lunatics would not wipe-out 80% of their own population. |
It's a language problem by my part...I'm saying he would declare every Christian Church illegal and get rid of the clergy. |
Well, I've already had that confusion between church and congregation explained to me once today so I like to be sure.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The only lunatic capable of the other solution was Pol Pot. |
I suspect it was incompetence at running a country and lunacy that resulted in the Kymer Rouge managing to wipe-out a quarter of its own people.
|
What?
|
 |
siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15344
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:04 |
Does anyone here consider music in general and progressive music for those inclined to be the anti-Nazi program? Me dooz.
|
https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
|
 |
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:12 |
Well, no I didn't, that was Iván, not me. 
|
What?
|
 |
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:18 |
oh yes, sorry. in these long conversations with all these indentations it is sometimes difficult to properly correlate who said what
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
 |
Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:20 |
presdoug wrote:
Composer Richard Strauss, who had to deal with the Nazis directly, dubbed them, "dilettantes and barbarians". I am just in the process of reading a bio of German conductor Wilhelm Furtwaengler called "The Devil's Music Master". A controversial figure, condemned by some for staying behind in Germany during the Nazi terror, he, at great personal risk, saved scores of Jews from death, and openly condemned the Nazis. Himmler wanted to arrest Furtwaengler for doing so, but he escaped to Switzerland. He basically thought, somewhat naievly, that he could fight the Nazis from within, and that politics and art were totally separate from each other. A courageous man in very difficult times. |
Hitler was a great music lover, Stalin often went to the Bolshoi – get over it! The relationship between music and dictatorship is complex. And at the heart of it is technology. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/may/10/power-classical-music-age-dictators
Let's not forget Napoleon............a kind of generalised self-censorship exists about this man in France......he furthered the emergence of all the racist and pseudo-scientific theories of the 19th century that were subsequently taken up by the Nazis. In fact, Napoleon was a genocidal, perhaps as barbaric as Hitler. And (why not?) inspiration for him.
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:23 |
BaldJean wrote:
I don't quite agree. you went into the relationship between Church and NS regime, and the Reichskonkordat is a major issue there
|
Not a major issue.
Concordats are very generic, but I seen none in which the Government agrees to keep priests away from the military.
If the Concordat was a problem, it wouldn't remain valid until today.
|
|
 |
JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:28 |
Dean wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
and far as I know Japan did not really do this,
|
...but alas they did, not in extermination camps but certainly through mass-killings of civilians in occupied countries. Estimates range from 3 to 10 million deaths and countless other war crimes such as human experimentation and forced labour. |
This is true. In my haste before work I did forget about that. Was thinking about Jews specifically and as you said concentration camps, but that is right there were indeed mass killings. How could I forget Nanking pre dating the war?
Which I guess just furthers the point: No, there is nothing good to come of Fascism (I'm vaguely lumping all hard nationalist militaristic right wing dictatorships in there)
Edited by JJLehto - February 06 2017 at 17:29
|
 |
Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67452
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:31 |
True fascism has never been tried.
|
 |
JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:39 |
Upbeat Tango Monday.
There are some misconceptions, I thinking coming from a bias, you have there.
There's a degree of truth in some of what you say. Fascism did have its roots in Socialism. Mussolini was one, and the idea itself is an offshoot of Socialism. The idea was indeed marketed against Western/liberal/laissez-faire Capitalism as well as Marxist Socialist, this is true. The Nazis called it a "Socialism for the small business" probably not shocking because the found of the original nazi party was a small businessman. And yes it's true "big government" was involved, central planning. Another goal was to eliminate the social strife created by liberal capitalism. Instead of eliminating class and equalizing like the left wanted however,they chose "vertical" integration...stacking all of society into a neat orderly tower that runs smoothly. Like a business or military (coincidence?)
But to call it radical left? That's quite unrealistic. It by no means sought to replace capitalism first of all, it was just a different form, and clearly it was not anti big business. And from what I understand, the workers and small business didn't exactly fare super well under Fascism. Anyway true leftism doesn't even like central planning. Hell Leon Trotsky of all people said central planning was a bad idea  I can't blame you. For decades we've all been taught socialism/leftism = more more government! China or fascism is the end result, so I get the confusion but please don't say fascism is radical left. That's nonsense
As for some of the other points, can't pick a few things out to lump the whole thing as "left" and while you make a good point that animals may have had more rights than some humans, why is that "left?" Any ideology can subhumanize people, just like any ideology can commit genocide. Why call it all left? Love of healthy and physical lifestyle...leftist? I dont even know what to say about that one  Unless all health and good living is some liberal plot? Also find it hard to believe that racism wasn't one of the 2 main points of it all. Yes, of course most of the era was racist...it's an uncomfortable truth that Vichy France was quite willing to oppress Jews and given them up. Anti semitism was sadly the norm of the time.
But ya know, it was a Fascist state that took it to this extreme, not leftism. I mean...man, one of the first things Hitler did was abolish unions!
Edited by JJLehto - February 06 2017 at 17:52
|
 |
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 17:40 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
I don't quite agree. you went into the relationship between Church and NS regime, and the Reichskonkordat is a major issue there
|
Not a major issue.
Concordats are very generic, but I seen none in which the Government agrees to keep priests away from the military.
If the Concordat was a problem, it wouldn't remain valid until today. |
 the Reichskonkordat remains most controversial until today. the play by Rolf Hochhuth that I mentioned caused a big scandal when it came out. I would most certainly call that a major issue
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:05 |
BaldJean wrote:
the Reichskonkordat remains most controversial until today. the play by Rolf Hochhuth that I mentioned caused a big scandal when it came out. I would most certainly call that a major issue
|
Please Jean Rolf Hochhuth is a Pius XII hater, and his opinions against him allowing jews massacre have been silenced by jews;
- Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome, "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts...priests and even higher prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."
- Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent Pius XII a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."
- Einstein, Time magazine, December 23, 1940, pg. 38: "Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came to Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but then, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."
- In a March 6, 1939 editorial, "Leadership for Peace," the Palestine Post in Jerusalem said: "Pius XII has clearly shown that he intends to carry on the late Pope's [Pius XI] work for freedom and peace... we remember that he must have had a large part to play in the recent Papal opposition to pernicious race theories and certain aspects of totalitarianism..."
- In 2001 New York Rabbi David Dalin has proposed that Pope Pius XII be proclaimed "Righteous Among the Nations," the highest award given by the state of Israel to persons outstanding in assisting persecuted Jews during World War II: "More than any other 20th century leader, Pius XII fulfilled this Talmudic tradition, when the fate of European Jewry was at stake. No other Pope had been so widely praised by Jews, and they were not mistaken. Their gratitutde, as well as that of the entire generation of holocaust survivors, testifies that Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile.... Pius XII was not Hitler's pope, but the closest Jews had come to having a papal supporter, and at the moment when it mattered most."
- David Herstig concludes his book on the subject thus: "Those rescued by Pius are today living all over the world. There went to Israel alone from Romania 360,000 to the year 1965." - The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together. - Because of his close contact with Romania's Chief Rabbi Safran throughout the war, Archbishop Cassulo kept himself and the Vatican informed about the condition of Romanian Jews, especially those interned in concentration camps beyond the Dnieper. In 1942 and 1943, prompted by Pope Pius XII, the nuncio visited numbers of camps, taking with him considerable sums of money sent by the Pope for distribution among the prisoners. Following the 1943 visit, the Archbishop presented a ten-point request to Rado Lecca, the government official in charge of Jewish affairs, to alleviate the misery in the camps; by June, 1943, Rabbi Safran was able to report to him that conditions had improved noticeably as a result. People wanted Pius XII to declare war on Germany.
That would had been stupid, the Vatican is in the center of the Axis, not on a different continent, with no military at all, except 167 Swiss Guards.
In 5 minutes the Nazis would have killed the 167 Swizz Guards, capture the pope, placed a puppet Pope, and killed the 860,000 Jews that survived the Holocaust protected by the Church.
|
|
 |
siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15344
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:21 |
I'm sorry but i didn't read every single post so forgive me if i am repeating something or seem oblivious to the what has been said before.
My jewish friends have explained to me that one of the major factors in the holocaust had to do with economics.
That means that Christianity which most Germans practiced at the time forbad certain economic practices whereas the Jews did not adhere to. Therefore the Jews gained an upper hand on the economic level which caused social distortion. Thus badness occurred in the form of the usual human jealousy and negative emotion thingeeism. Badness raised its ugly head and lots of people died. Badness ruled. Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
|
https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
|
 |
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65616
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:23 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise. |
And that wacky French underground.
|
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
 |
siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15344
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:35 |
Atavachron wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise. |
And that wacky French underground.
|
Yes, there are many to thank all across the board but the Soviets suffered more loss and did more damage than any other nation at the time. A very sad topic and nice commentary from you all and the current political status only reminds us of these things. I'm very surprised that other people of the world don't know these things such as in Japan~!なんてこった!!!!!
|
https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
|
 |
JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:41 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I'm sorry but i didn't read every single post so forgive me if i am repeating something or seem oblivious to the what has been said before.
My jewish friends have explained to me that one of the major factors in the holocaust had to do with economics.
That means that Christianity which most Germans practiced at the time forbad certain economic practices whereas the Jews did not adhere to. Therefore the Jews gained an upper hand on the economic level which caused social distortion. Thus badness occurred in the form of the usual human jealousy and negative emotion thingeeism. Badness raised its ugly head and lots of people died. Badness ruled. Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise. |
True, this is not anything new and sadly it hasn't gone away. I've seen very reasonable people I know personally (left, right and libertarian) get into borderline dark places when they get into zionism and intl banking cabals.They always stop short of something really horrible but ya know...still a little too close for me.
And yeah that's the f**ked up part of it all. Jews were kind of forced into banking as a natural lifestyle due to religious views and being forbidden from working most jobs. Then "all jews are greedy bankers who own the world and fund our wars! Damn intl zionist banking cabals" etc etc As you said, jealousy (and racism) is a nasty nasty thing.
Absolutely, the Cold War seems to have minimized the impact of the Soviet Union who fought I think 90% of all the Nazi forces at one point, and gave up shocking numbers of lives. The landing in France and that theater is so dramatized and hyped up, to think 8/10 Germany Army deaths happened on the Eastern Front.
Edited by JJLehto - February 06 2017 at 18:44
|
 |
siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15344
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:58 |
^ that solves the mystery then. Religion is to blame. Of course any rigid non-evolving lines of thinking fall into this category. I'm so glad to be a part of the prog commune. We all seem to despise these limitations of human ingenuity.
|
https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
|
 |
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 19:12 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
the Reichskonkordat remains most controversial until today. the play by Rolf Hochhuth that I mentioned caused a big scandal when it came out. I would most certainly call that a major issue
|
Please Jean Rolf Hochhuth is a Pius XII hater, and his opinions against him allowing jews massacre have been silenced by jews;
- Israel Zolli, Chief Rabbi of Rome, "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts...priests and even higher prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."
- Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent Pius XII a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world."
- Einstein, Time magazine, December 23, 1940, pg. 38: "Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came to Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but then, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."
- In a March 6, 1939 editorial, "Leadership for Peace," the Palestine Post in Jerusalem said: "Pius XII has clearly shown that he intends to carry on the late Pope's [Pius XI] work for freedom and peace... we remember that he must have had a large part to play in the recent Papal opposition to pernicious race theories and certain aspects of totalitarianism..."
- In 2001 New York Rabbi David Dalin has proposed that Pope Pius XII be proclaimed "Righteous Among the Nations," the highest award given by the state of Israel to persons outstanding in assisting persecuted Jews during World War II: "More than any other 20th century leader, Pius XII fulfilled this Talmudic tradition, when the fate of European Jewry was at stake. No other Pope had been so widely praised by Jews, and they were not mistaken. Their gratitutde, as well as that of the entire generation of holocaust survivors, testifies that Pius XII was, genuinely and profoundly, a righteous gentile.... Pius XII was not Hitler's pope, but the closest Jews had come to having a papal supporter, and at the moment when it mattered most."
- David Herstig concludes his book on the subject thus: "Those rescued by Pius are today living all over the world. There went to Israel alone from Romania 360,000 to the year 1965." - The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together. - Because of his close contact with Romania's Chief Rabbi Safran throughout the war, Archbishop Cassulo kept himself and the Vatican informed about the condition of Romanian Jews, especially those interned in concentration camps beyond the Dnieper. In 1942 and 1943, prompted by Pope Pius XII, the nuncio visited numbers of camps, taking with him considerable sums of money sent by the Pope for distribution among the prisoners. Following the 1943 visit, the Archbishop presented a ten-point request to Rado Lecca, the government official in charge of Jewish affairs, to alleviate the misery in the camps; by June, 1943, Rabbi Safran was able to report to him that conditions had improved noticeably as a result. People wanted Pius XII to declare war on Germany.
That would had been stupid, the Vatican is in the center of the Axis, not on a different continent, with no military at all, except 167 Swiss Guards.
In 5 minutes the Nazis would have killed the 167 Swizz Guards, capture the pope, placed a puppet Pope, and killed the 860,000 Jews that survived the Holocaust protected by the Church. |
Ivan, I know all this. nevertheless the Reichskonkordat remains problematic. I will just quote the first sentence, marking a special passage: Seine Heiligkeit Papst Pius XI. und der Deutsche Reichspräsident, von dem gemeinsamen Wunsche geleitet, die zwischen dem
Heiligen Stuhl und dem Deutschen Reich bestehenden freundschaftlichen Beziehungen zu festigen und zu fördern, gewillt, das
Verhältnis zwischen der katholischen Kirche und dem Staat für den Gesamtbereich des Deutschen Reiches in einer beide Teile
befriedigenden Weise dauernd zu regeln, haben beschlossen, eine feierliche Übereinkunft zu treffen, welche die mit einzelnen
deutschen Ländern abgeschlossenen Konkordate ergänzen und auch für die übrigen Länder eine in den Grundsätzen einheitliche
Behandlung der einschlägigen Fragen sichern soll.
in translation: His Holiness Pope Pius XI and the President of the German Reich, moved
by a common desire to consolidate and promote the friendly relations
existing between the Holy See and the German Reich, wish to permanently
regulate the relations between the Catholic Church and the state for the
whole territory of the German Reich in a way acceptable to both
parties. They have decided to conclude a solemn agreement, which will
supplement the Concordats already concluded with individual German
states , and will ensure for the remaining states fundamentally uniform treatment of their respective problems.
note: the word "states" refers to the federal states of Germany like for example Bavaria .
I think you will agree that this declaration of friendship is not unproblematic
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 19:33 |
BaldJean wrote:
I think you will agree that this declaration of friendship is not unproblematic
|
It's called diplomatic language, common in each and every international treaty.
Most important is what they say:
- Catholic clergy can't join the party or participate in the war. - Minorities will be respected. - Catholic rights will be respected.
THAT'S ALL.
PS: Perú and Ecuador signed the Peace, Friendship and Limits treaty........Do you believe we were friends? Nope, we hated our guts for decades, each few years we had a small war, that's diplomatic language.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 06 2017 at 19:59
|
|
 |
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 19:41 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
Fortunately we should be thankful for all those who resisted especially the Soviet Union who tore the guts out of the Nazi regime and were instrumental in its demise.
|
Are you talking about the same Soviet Union that in August 23 of 1939, when the crimes had already started signed a treaty of friendship an Mutual Defense with the Reich?
Are you talking about the same Soviet Union who remained faithful to the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact until June 22, 1941 when their interests in eastern Europe collision with the ones of the Nazis?
And only after Hitler betrayed them not accepting a re-negotiation of the spoils of war?
Please.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 06 2017 at 19:45
|
|
 |
siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15344
|
Posted: February 06 2017 at 20:18 |
^ no. of course i'm not defending any soviet crimes against humanity but it is a proven historical fact that once the whole WW2 was initiated that the soviets did prove to be the major force that led to the nazi demise. to be fair NO country of that era is without blood on its hands and obviously the USA and Japan are included
|
https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
|
 |