American Politics the 2016 edition - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833

Posted: February 04 2017 at 16:34

it is the culture war man... there is no room in the middle.. spoken as one who mistakenly thought the middle still could win... consider me enlightened. I personally overestimated the rationality of those.. both left and right. Those on the right were going to vote Trump even if she did shoot someone down in the street on live TV.. it would have been spun as the alt facts from the liberal media...

and the left... who cares if it meant elected a completely unfit man with more personality disorders than I have fingers.. Hillary wasn't just too flawed and beholden to Wall Street. So they voted for the dope smoker and the crazy broad..

as I said..it seems the days of rational politics are over forget even about voting for best qualified candidates. If the Democrats move left.. they win.. there are more of us than them.. and sooner or later those poor working class stiffs will learn that democratic policies benefit them.. not the rich business oligarchs and social nuts in the GOP....but if they don't.. all hail Trump for 4 more years haha

Edited by micky - February 04 2017 at 16:41

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

JJLehto

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550

Posted: February 04 2017 at 17:05

Well, I do think the constant bashing of third parties is not fully accurate either and seems to be, in my book, a bit of a defense mechanism from people who (not saying this is you but in general) just can't admit outright Clinton lost.

First, the commonly accepted theory was Johnson's uptick came from "Never Trump" Republicans. I'd need to see if there's any analysis yet about where Gary voters may have come from, but you'd think his presence actually hindered Trump....as in he would've won bigger without Gary. Im sure some Berners went Gary but I think this # was probably very very small.

That's the other thing, Democrats are gunna always cave and go Democrat. The "Bernie or bust" people were likely independents or non voters. Usually third party voters would've not voted at all. What about the 45% of eligible voters who didnt? Just a few of those could've changed everything. What about youth voters that didn't come out for her? We just can't know how exactly how things would've played out. Especially with things so close, it's best for Democrats to just admit: Clinton lost, and third parties really can't be blamed. Indeed it's dangerous to do so. Besides, I need to check Stein's numbers but in PA and WI I'm not sure her vote # was larger than Clinton's loss (in MI it was). It my be that if 100% of Stein voters went for Clinton she would've won but you know this is not the case.

No need to beat the horse to death even more but while it may not mean much to you or moderate, the "wall st stuff" is pretty darn important. Ask Cory Booker why he would vote against the will of the people and keep cheaper drugs out of the US? Or why some big name Democrats refused to have the public option, even though people wanted it. Its not just unemployed hippies/crazed idealists angry at rich people.

I also think populist rhetoric isn't necessarily bad, I'd say most politics is to some extent. Sanders or Warren would be normal leaders, (who wouldn't try to create a live telling of 1984). They would/will try to do the most they can within the system. Unlike Trump who is governing as a populist. I still say the "Warren wing" is actually very reasonable and sensible, far more than the neoliberal/Clinton wing. We know these policies work over the decades, while centrist/Reagan influenced policies have proven, over the decades, to be a bust.

Bernie wasn't the best at explaining things and he IS a politician...he had to drum up stuff about balancing the budget, bringing back jobs etc etc but I know the economists and groups he consults with, I read em and often post them here! He knows that jobs aren't coming back, that we should strengthen labor rights and rebuild our economy here to counter globalization. Note he railed against trade deals but never really said he'd nuke em or renegotiate. And he knows we don't NEED to balance the budget every year and some deficit spending will help us. He knew better, but didn't really say it. Which is a damn shame.

Edited by JJLehto - February 04 2017 at 17:06

Gamemako

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184

Posted: February 04 2017 at 19:29

So of all the things to do on a Saturday, I engaged some anti-immigrant commenter on IGN about that whole Swedish rape thing. It reminded me of a study I didn't post here previously, but which which might be an interesting read for those concerned with the migrant crisis and its economic effects. It is specifically about Germany' refugee resettlement, but it can likely be applied broadly.

Hail Eris!

rogerthat

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869

Posted: February 04 2017 at 20:12

npjnpj wrote:

By the way: who is that ponce with the sunglasses? Probably someone famous, but he looks like a reject from the Love Beach cover

That's Jon Camp, the bassist of Renaissance.

npjnpj

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720

Posted: February 04 2017 at 21:14

Jon Camp, really? I'd never have thought that. Of course, the pictures I've seen of him are all decades old now. Fantastic bass player.

JJLehto

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550

Posted: February 04 2017 at 21:57

Trump was speaking with Bill O Reilly and said Putin is morally equal with the US. O Reilly responds "but he's a killer" to which Trump replies "There are a lot of killers. You think our country is so innocent?"

OK....I'm actually a good bit perplexed over this. Is this simply more defense of Putin in his usual style "Yeah well we're not better so whatever" or a shockingly honest appraisal?

As we all know, the US is indeed far from innocent but to hear it said and from a Republican of all....is mind boggling. Now I don't like his continued praise of Putin, but Trump continues to be such a basket case: Saying one of the most honestly true things about the US I've heard, but then wants to continue his very active foreign policy LOL

This guy

rogerthat

Prog Reviewer

Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869

Posted: February 04 2017 at 22:51

npjnpj wrote:

Jon Camp, really? I'd never have thought that. Of course, the pictures I've seen of him are all decades old now. Fantastic bass player.

In fact, it's neither though he does look like Camp. It's Ry Cooder. I just opened the image in another tab and found the name.

BaldJean

Prog Reviewer

Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387

Posted: February 05 2017 at 02:15

as to the Swedish rape cases: it is not as simple as "more immigrants, more rapes". this article sheds some light on the problem:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/11/are-migrants-really-raping-swedish-women.html

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

npjnpj

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720

Posted: February 05 2017 at 05:54

The often alleged connection between ethnicity and rape, in Sweden and in other countries, has now become a subject of intense propaganda for both sides, not to forget that it sells by the bucketload for a frenzied media. Sex and violence, every journalist's wet dream (literally).

Generally, a crime is a crime, and should be judged on an individual basis with no ethnic connection being established at all, at least not for the public, but it should be part of the statistical data for tracing and (hopefully) eradicating social problems.

That being said; if there is a connection, the knowledge thereof that should not be allowed to enter the public domain because of its potential for unrest and violence. Ethnic persuasion should, I think, be a part of the internal case file, because, if there really should be a statistical connection, this should be addressed on a political and social level, hopefully resulting in better education and integration. (It is my firm belief that a satisfactory level of education can, in time, solve a great number of social problems.)

The problem is though that the information concerning any connection, if this should turn out to be the case, will inevitably be leaked to the media, and sooner rather than later. This is a dilemma for which I can see no solution.

In the end, there is this problem that I have with political correctness in general: it often results in a problem not being able to be addressed, because its wording is 'forbidden'. And if you can't formulate a problem, you can't solve it. It's a form of self-inflicted paralysis.

Edited by npjnpj - February 05 2017 at 06:03

Tillerman88 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495

Posted: February 05 2017 at 08:10

npjnpj wrote:

It is my firm belief that a satisfactory level of education [and especially a satisfactory level of moral values] can, in time, solve a great number of social problems.

I strongly second your thoughts. And , further speaking, especially on cases of sexual violence like these we are discussing, I reckon the solution is beyond the educational level.

Edited by Tillerman88 - February 05 2017 at 08:36

progaardvark View Drop Down

Collaborator

Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams

Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 51057

Posted: February 06 2017 at 06:50

JJLehto wrote:

I mean, who wins and still wants to dispute the election? The man is President and needs to prove no he really DID win the pop vote! Sure this is partly a distraction, but does anyone think he doesn't mean it?

I find this bizarre too. It seems mostly ego-driven, but the GOP is likely to use this as an excuse to push voter suppression. Journalist Greg Palast actually thinks the 2016 election was stolen by the GOP on voter suppression alone though purging and not having enough polling places in predominantly African American districts.

----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions

SteveG

Forum Senior Member

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604

Posted: February 06 2017 at 14:17

micky wrote:

SteveG wrote:

micky wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Warren? The age of reasonable politics is over. Time to get someone that appeals to blacks and latinos on a virseral level or have Trump rule for eight long years. Seriously.

*spits coffee on the screen*

I think we have differing views on Warren Steve. She is a tiger man, and her politics.. exactly the type the that will appeal to the youth, minorities, and the emerging ascendant leftist wing of the party. As well as inpire them. She sure does for this old jaded soul.. I'd go through a brick wall for her... or toss any nativist bigoted bible thumper through a wall for her.

She is like Bernie.. just more electable.... with much more personality and a hell of a lot more fire.

Remember man.... .populism cuts for both sides. If the party learns anything from 2016 it is that the age of middle of the road policis are over. As I said, if Warren goes in 2020... they will likely win... the numbers and demographics favor us. As long as we don't repeat the mistake we made (in hindsight LOL

) in 2016, but would foolish to ignore the lesson of moving forward, competent experienced uninspiring middle of the road dull politicians will lose in today's polarized and irrational country of ours.

*spits coffee right back and despairs*

Let's get real and stop living in a bygone dem vs repub nostalgia land. American politics has become the politics of Race. That is why Trump is President.

Until you, and others that think like you, understand that, we will have Hillary all over again. Except that that her name will be Jennifer Warren. And Trump will be still be at the wheel. And Dems like you will once again be scratching your heads at the end of 2019.

NO!!!!! explain where those racists and bigots where in the past two elections where we elected a damned black man as President. Are you telling me it took a white women to bring out the bigots and racists..

they've always been there... what wasn't there in 2016... were democrats. Which means they are still there... they needed to be inspired to vote.. fear of Trump wasn't enough

Hillary lost millions of votes to Libertarians and the Greens and it cost her the election.. she lost the election. Trump did not win it as he picked up with Clinton dropped.

Thus my point.. if the Democrats learn from 2016 and go with Warren.. they win... they go with Booker or anyone else.. they risk losing again to a man who every 3rd word out of his mouth should have DQ'd him from most rational Americans ever voting for the motherf**ker...

as I said.. the days of rational politics are over. Populism is in.. and to you have to fight fire with fire. Warren and Trump head to head... bring the popcorn...

First off, let's differentiate between the words Race and Racism. One refers to a race of people, while the latter refers to prejudice against the race of those peoples. I said that politics is now about Race.

This may or may not include racism, but racism is never far from being a contributing factor. When Obama was elected President it was a chance for a group of Americans for the first time in history to vote for a member of their own race. A race that has never been included as part of the mythological American dream. A race of people of which the words inscribed on the Statue of Liberty was never directed at them, as if the Statue was purposefully turned with their back against them. A race never welcomed to become part of the national melting, to pursue the suburban white picket fence with approved mortgages that would let them advance and live in the neighborhoods of later immigrants that came of their own free will instead of by force. Later immigrants that never wanted them within 10 miles of their own American dream homes.

So, we have record numbers of African American voters that for once can vote for one of their own. They do and he wins. But it's a hallow victory, as the President they elected, aside form a few social improvements such as trying to reverse the lopsided black prison population and it's subsequent continual repopulation from those that have been released, is not (justly or unjustly) the President of African Americans. He's done nothing to turn the tide against police killings, broaden educational opportunities for blacks, get blacks employed, stop voter discrimination at them, etc., etc., etc.

Meet the new the boss. Same as the old boss. And it will be a cold day in hell before African Americans think twice about voting for another African American president, let alone anyone, white, black, brown, male or female, that is part of the Democratic party.

Now on the flipside of this apathy is the rejuvenated Republican party whose platform is based on hated and discrimination of the other. The Mexican or other Latino immigrants, and the the Muslim immigrants. Those with or without an ideology, but who like the group I described above, are not part of the American dream, and who also see Miss Liberty as turning her back to them.

One group I've mentioned could care less about the Democratic party and the other is designed to do all it's power to eviscerate it.

And people like you will continue to look at stats and rationalizations and never comprehend the truth. And, sadly, many will suffer because of it along with the ones that are suffering now.

Edited by SteveG - February 06 2017 at 14:32

JJLehto

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550

Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:12

progaardvark wrote:

JJLehto wrote:

I've heard that theory as well, and I would not be surprised at all if that was the true plan.

I can't say definitively yes or no on the second part, but I will say it's not anything new. The GOP deployed the tactic in FL 2000, OH 2004 (though less discussed) and red states have generally taken a knife to voting rights and started gutting away, especially since part of the Voting Rights Act was not upheld. I've heard newly red states like NC and WI have been guilty in the matter, and it does feel ooky that those states went red despite all the polling.

I still dont blame that, I personally didn't expect NC to go Clinton and the WI loss was so tight a plethora of factors pop up. BUT one does have to wonder....

I mean, in the Dem primary we heard how "Black participation seems down!" but I believe that was generally in red states. In others, like Michigan, I recall the "record turn out" and scores registering to vote. Maricopa County AZ and the hispanic areas with barely any voting stations. It does have to make ya think

Edited by JJLehto - February 06 2017 at 18:14

JJLehto

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550

Posted: February 06 2017 at 18:24

On the topic of voter shenanigans, I did hear a podcast not too long ago looking into the recount drama in NC.

The GOP kept demanding recounts and holding up the results, and this podcast went into how they targeted NC as their witch hunt for voter fraud. They decided this was their best chance to find fraud and picked every inch apart with a microscope.

After all their effort they found 300-400 ballots where the County Water & Soil administrator could've been fraudulent. Keep in mind the Dem had a lead of around 10,000. I forget the details but what happened with this county water & soil administrator was technically legal, though it was very boderline and the actions could've been considered fraud by any reasonable person. BUT the GOP tried to then say the whole thing should be thrown out, the courts did not agree, and the guy who actually filed the lawsuit showed up woefully ill prepared: Not properly dressed, didn't know his lawyers' name and couldn't even explain what his lawsuit was about, he then admitted he just signed his name to whatever his lawyer wrote LOL

So the courts threw the case out, and found out the GOP actually committed voter fraud because people who were paid to mail absentee ballots never did that but still submitted filled out ballots.

Ta da! The end result of the GOP witch hunt for fraud in what was supposedly their best chance

As we know, the outgoing Gov and Congress then signed a law reducing future (aka the incoming Democrat) Governor powers so there ya go. And people then are shocked/don't believe when they hear the US is no longer a full functioning Democracy!

Edited by JJLehto - February 06 2017 at 18:28

JJLehto

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550

Posted: February 06 2017 at 23:57

So I just did my taxes, first time (I always just left it to Dad who was happy to since he wanted to get the most of his TurboTax software) and figured I'd look at the numbers. My income for 2016 (granted it started in May) puts me somewhere in the bottom 13-20%

Between Federal Income, Social Security, Medicare paid a total of 12.1% in taxes

I paid 14.2% to my employer sponsored health insurance.

Looks like Uncle Capital Health takes a bigger bite than Uncle Sam!

Especially after EITC and deductions, which were 6.3%, I ended up with a total 5.8% tax rate.

Couldn't help but think about Bernie's plan/logic...even a 10% hike in taxes if it eliminated most private premiums, would still save me. Assuming everyone pays something into it with it being progressive on income, other savings, payments etc yeah I can't see how it wont cost less than what we do now. At the very least break even. Some food for thought.

Dayvenkirq View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member