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Gamemako
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:55 |
The T wrote:
there was a reason Hitler could be appointed by Hindenburg : the NSDAP was the largest party in Germany.
That is being DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED |
That's tricky. They were a strong minority party -- ~30% -- prior to taking over. Over the course of more or less one year, 1933, they went from that to an essentially totalitarian one-party state. Democratically elected, perhaps, but not majority favored. Their takeover was largely political.
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Hail Eris!
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:01 |
Political and very corrupt. No paralleles to today, thank goodness.
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:13 |
Gamemako wrote:
The T wrote:
there was a reason Hitler could be appointed by Hindenburg : the NSDAP was the largest party in Germany.
That is being DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED |
That's tricky. They were a strong minority party -- ~30% -- prior to taking over. Over the course of more or less one year, 1933, they went from that to an essentially totalitarian one-party state. Democratically elected, perhaps, but not majority favored. Their takeover was largely political.
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only 5 weeks after Hitler came into power there was a new election in which the Nazis won 43.9% of the votes (a gain of 10.8%). the second most votes went to the Social Democrats (18.3%), third most to the Zentrum (Center, 12.3%), the rest to other parties. and since the other parties quarreled with each other instead of joining to fight the NSDAP the Nazis de facto had the majority. of course the political systems of the USA and the Weimar Republic are by no means the same, so the situation in the USA today is definitely different from the situation in Germany 1933. I will nevertheless remain in my mixed Ovid / Cato mode, so: ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Edited by BaldJean - January 29 2017 at 09:15
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:15 |
" There is an absolute difference between a wish to provide protection against immigrants deigned to be a "threat", and the wish to obliterate from the face of the earth a race, or races, who are felt "not to belong". Any comparison between the two calls to mind, in my opinion, a distinct and continuing lack of understanding as to the forces which brought Trumpalot to power in the first place." Are you and other people here forgetting that there can be even more cruelty on leaving immigrants by their own chance (starving, drowning etc.) than directly 'obliterating' them from the face of the earth? Especially when the ultimate course of action comes from the most powerful country's government (even though not much farthest in time, IMHO.) Everyone on here would call me a sentimantalist or whatever, but no one with rational thinking can obviate that inexorable comparison you are bearing ridiculous... . ..
Edited by Tillerman88 - January 29 2017 at 09:18
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Gamemako
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:16 |
npjnpj wrote:
Political and very corrupt. No paralleles to today, thank goodness.
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Again, the Ermächitgungsgesetz would be unconstitutional here. If there is to be a minority takeover of government, they need to either convince a congressional majority in both houses and most state legislatures to change the constitution, or to outright ignore the judiciary with the support of congress and not of most states (for which military intervention would be required to force capitulation), or somehow take over from the executive and ninja impeachment. Either way, the pathways are more difficult here.
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Hail Eris!
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:34 |
Ah, that's so sweet! Best of luck with that, anyway.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:35 |
@Tillerman88: Sorry, but I've tried to understand what you were saying, but even with a dictionary and thesaurus I'm not getting very far. Could you possibly rephrase that? I'd like to know what you have to say.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:36 |
I don't think anyone here is saying "the US is just like Nazi Germany". For starters, that was 1933. This is 2017. Nothing else needs to be said. There are 4738282 differences between the two situations. However, there are parallels, and considering the different circumstances, still relatively similar situations can happen.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 09:48 |
+1
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 10:01 |
The T wrote:
I don't think anyone here is saying "the US is just like Nazi Germany". For starters, that was 1933. This is 2017. Nothing else needs to be said. There are 4738282 differences between the two situations. However, there are parallels, and considering the different circumstances, still relatively similar situations can happen.
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Exactly. And refusing to give humanitarian assistance is just one of these situations already happening. . ..
Edited by Tillerman88 - January 29 2017 at 10:02
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 10:03 |
npjnpj wrote:
@Tillerman88: Sorry, but I've tried to understand what you were saying, but even with a dictionary and thesaurus I'm not getting very far. Could you possibly rephrase that? I'd like to know what you have to say.
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This sounds really strange man.............please care to search for a better dictionary then.
Edited by Tillerman88 - January 29 2017 at 10:04
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 10:18 |
@Tillerman88: No seriously, I wasn't being funny or anything. For instance, you wrote:
'Are you and other people here forgetting that there can be even more
cruelty on leaving immigrants by their own chance (starving, drowning
etc.) than directly 'obliterating' them from the face of the earth?'
This sounds to me as if you were saying: It's more merciful to kill immigrants directly than it would be to leave them to starve or drown.
Surely, that can't be. The other parts of your post are equally as difficult for me:
'...but no one with rational thinking can obviate that inexorable comparison you are bearing ridiculous.... Sorry, I don't get this at all.
Edited by npjnpj - January 29 2017 at 10:22
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13000
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 10:41 |
lazland wrote:
The T wrote:
Haven't even read all posts, just need to say: whoever you are, if you support or justify the Muslim ban, you are disgusting to me. |
I have not done either, Teo, so I hope I remain undisgusting to you
I was merely pointing out the folly of comparing Trump to Hitler. It is ridiculous, sorry. |
I am sorry, Steve, but is it folly? I am no longer sure. Just yesterday, Steve Bannon was elevated by Trump to a seat on the National Security Council. Bannon, by all accounts, is an ultra-right wing nationalist, and his Breitbart.com propaganda caters to white nationalists, anti-feminists, anti-LGBT, racists and neo-Nazis. He has been reported by many news organizations to also be a raging anti-Semite. If putting someone like that in position of real authority doesn't seem reminiscent of Joseph Goebbels, I am not sure what does.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13600
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 11:22 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
lazland wrote:
The T wrote:
Haven't even read all posts, just need to say: whoever you are, if you support or justify the Muslim ban, you are disgusting to me. |
I have not done either, Teo, so I hope I remain undisgusting to you
I was merely pointing out the folly of comparing Trump to Hitler. It is ridiculous, sorry. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I am sorry, Steve, but is it folly? I am no longer sure. Just yesterday, Steve Bannon was elevated by Trump to a seat on the National Security Council. Bannon, by all accounts, is an ultra-right wing nationalist, and his Breitbart.com propaganda caters to white nationalists, anti-feminists, anti-LGBT, racists and neo-Nazis. He has been reported by many news organizations to also be a raging anti-Semite. If putting someone like that in position of real authority doesn't seem reminiscent of Joseph Goebbels, I am not sure what does. | Hi Greg. My understanding is that Bannon is a leading light in the so-called alt right movement in America, and took over at the Breitbart website following the death of its founder. There is no doubt whatsoever that the views propagated by this movement could be described as "offensive" to those of a more, shall we put it, liberal bent. No doubt whatsoever. I do not agree with your view on the anti-Semite views, because my understanding is that, in fact, the website has been rather vocal in its support of the present Israeli administration, and the policies they propogate? Goebbels was an infamous Nazi, whose views and propaganda influenced many to the ill of a damned sight more. I do not equate libertarian right wing people such as Bannon with fascist dictators and their followers. The point I am trying my best to put across here is that there is no suggestion whatsoever that these people are seeking the elimination of races, genders, people's, as was the case with the totalitarian Nazis. That comparison simply does not bear any truth whatsoever. There is a world of difference between upsetting liberal tendencies and fascist death cults.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 11:29 |
on Jan 26th Hitler decreed the "Deutsches Beamtengesetz" (German civil-service law) which forced German civil servants to be loyal to the NSDAP. is it just a coincidence that exactly (and I mean exactly) 80 years later Donald Trump replaces hundreds of top civil servants with people who are loyal to him? the method may be different, the result is the same.
mark that it is by no means standard procedure that a new government replaces civil servants. the bureaucracy is usually kept intact, simply because it works. clumsily at times, but it works.
ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13000
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 12:00 |
lazland wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
lazland wrote:
The T wrote:
Haven't even read all posts, just need to say: whoever you are, if you support or justify the Muslim ban, you are disgusting to me. |
I have not done either, Teo, so I hope I remain undisgusting to you
I was merely pointing out the folly of comparing Trump to Hitler. It is ridiculous, sorry. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I am sorry, Steve, but is it folly? I am no longer sure. Just yesterday, Steve Bannon was elevated by Trump to a seat on the National Security Council. Bannon, by all accounts, is an ultra-right wing nationalist, and his Breitbart.com propaganda caters to white nationalists, anti-feminists, anti-LGBT, racists and neo-Nazis. He has been reported by many news organizations to also be a raging anti-Semite. If putting someone like that in position of real authority doesn't seem reminiscent of Joseph Goebbels, I am not sure what does. |
Hi Greg. My understanding is that Bannon is a leading light in the so-called alt right movement in America, and took over at the Breitbart website following the death of its founder.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the views propagated by this movement could be described as "offensive" to those of a more, shall we put it, liberal bent. No doubt whatsoever. I do not agree with your view on the anti-Semite views, because my understanding is that, in fact, the website has been rather vocal in its support of the present Israeli administration, and the policies they propogate?
Goebbels was an infamous Nazi, whose views and propaganda influenced many to the ill of a damned sight more. I do not equate libertarian right wing people such as Bannon with fascist dictators and their followers.
The point I am trying my best to put across here is that there is no suggestion whatsoever that these people are seeking the elimination of races, genders, people's, as was the case with the totalitarian Nazis. That comparison simply does not bear any truth whatsoever.
There is a world of difference between upsetting liberal tendencies and fascist death cults. |
Perhaps my hyperbole was too harsh, and I do see what you are saying, Steve, and agree for the most part. However, there's a nagging voice in the back of my head that causes me to be ill at ease about this...regime. An anti-Semite could certainly be pro-Israel given that the current scapegoat is Islamic and not the "Eternal Jew" (Hitler and Stalin famously signed a non-aggression pact while being diametrically opposed to one another). The mass deportation rhetoric of the Trump administration and the whole "America First" or "Make America Great Again" (just like it was back in antebellum Mississippi!) reeks of a Nationalism that requires an adherence to a stratified and calcified meaning of who an "American" is.
So, when you say there isn't a suggestion that "these people are seeking the elimination of races, genders, people's, as was the case with the totalitarian Nazis", I am not altogether sure if you understand what has been said by this administration (and Trump during his election campaign) regarding not just people of Islamic origins, but those of Hispanic backgrounds as well. My historical perspective may be exaggerated, but to what extent?
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 13:39 |
As big as this immigration/refugee thing is, I can't help wondering if it might not also be a distraction from something even bigger brewing. It's becoming a smoke screen that's dwarfing everything else. Anyway, we'll see.
It seems as if the Democrats are now planning some legislation to disable the immigration ban executive order. They can, of course, only do this with some of the republicans' help.
This will be extremely interesting in the way that it's going to show how Trump will handle his detractors (or would that be traitors?). I'm sure this is going to lead to some cleansing of the republican camp. Perhaps he'll have them thrown in jail on Trumped-Up charges (sorry, I just couldn't resist that one).
Apart from this: the muslim ban is supposed to stay in place for 90 days. Does that mean that Trump is of the opinion that the ISIS problem will be solved by then? Or is there just going to be an extension? Perhaps Donald Trump is Skynet personified
And has no one though of letting the refugees in and having them build the Mexican wall? They can live in guarded concentration camps all along the border, and the border patrol can hold target practise on the children and orphans. No, that would be just too harsh. Perhaps they can find some additional Mexican puppies and kittens.
Edited by npjnpj - January 29 2017 at 14:00
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65152
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 17:14 |
Hats off to Steve (laz) for having the courage and presence of mind to say what he perceives instead of getting caught-up in the socio-politics of the moment, and to continue his level-headed discourse after being called ugly things. Facts are very volatile and uncomfortable things to point out.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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infocat
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: June 10 2011
Location: Colorado, USA
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Points: 4671
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 18:39 |
Atavachron wrote:
Hats off to Steve (laz) for having the courage and presence of mind to say what he perceives instead of getting caught-up in the socio-politics of the moment, and to continue his level-headed discourse after being called ugly things. Facts are very volatile and uncomfortable things to point out.
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I must have missed all of these "ugly thing" that Steve is being accused of. I think Steve is right in that the Nazi comparison is a little "long". On the other hand we certainly do need to be very vigilant about Trump. While we shouldn't oppose everything he does just because we may be on "the other team" (like Republicans did with Obama), we certainly need to speak out (at the very least!) when we see something wrong. No, Trump is not (yet?) Hitler. But we don't want things to even come close to getting that far.
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-- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth.
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Gamemako
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 18:40 |
npjnpj wrote:
This will be extremely interesting in the way that it's going to show how Trump will handle his detractors (or would that be traitors?). I'm sure this is going to lead to some cleansing of the republican camp. Perhaps he'll have them thrown in jail on Trumped-Up charges (sorry, I just couldn't resist that one). |
Also generally unconstitutional. Cannot arrest a sitting congressperson for the most part. He'd have to resort to flinging farfetched accusations (e.g. treason) to get at them, and that likely wouldn't play in Peoria.
npjnpj wrote:
Apart from this: the muslim ban is supposed to stay in place for 90 days. Does that mean that Trump is of the opinion that the ISIS problem will be solved by then? |
In theory, it's a space during which new procedures can be developed to root out terrorists. In practice, it's a time period during which they delay the judiciary before claiming victory. Or, at least, try to delay the judiciary.
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Hail Eris!
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