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npjnpj 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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 Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:01 |
@lazland: I'm afraid that I'm entirely with BaldJean on this
one. What you're doing is very dangerous, in that you seem to be growing
blindfolds about what's going on, and instead getting lost in fine distinctions
that are, on a practical level, completely irrelevant.
In this case it is imperative to concentrate on the actual state of affairs and
be very aware that this is where it starts. Splitting historical hairs at this
point would be (sorry) pretty dumb. It's all just happening much too fast for
that.
I see Trump targeting an entire world religion covering many, many countries.
Do you seriously think that's not alarming because the NSDAP, Hitler, and
Goering went for the throat from a slightly different angle and out of
different motivations, so it's not comparable?
I would not be in the least surprised if one of the next steps will be The
Great Cleansing, Turkey-Erdogan style, and repression will be following
soon. You don't even have to learn from history, you can learn from the present, if you so wish. And yes, Donald Trump is a fascist bully. You can be that even if you're elected. Erdogan was elected in 2014.
Those checks and balances you
mention will be worthless when they're steamrollered, and everyone will be
moping around, saying: 'How did it happen so fast? We weren't prepared.'
It's happening now, and it's really, really bad. Complacency is something the world can't afford at the moment.
Edited by npjnpj - January 29 2017 at 08:23
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:21 |
 lazland wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
npjnpj wrote:
According to some reports from international news agencies, some of the travelers (men and women) from the evil countries have been taken off planes in several US airports, put in handcuffs, and kept in custody for several hours. Mind that they are green card owners who have lived and worked in the USA for years. They've been let go now; just routine.
Did anyone say fascism? Surely not. A little heavy-handed, perhaps. Nothing like what was done to the Jews in Nazi Germany, beggar the thought.
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the Nazis started small as well. that's why I repeat "principiis obsta"
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I am sorry, Jean, but principiis obsta (nip it in the bud, or stop something at the beginning, for those unaware of the meaning) really doesn't apply here. Trump is many things, but he is not a fascist bully boy in charge of a bunch of thugs. He is a democratically elected head of a mature liberal democracy, with more than enough checks and balances to keep some of his wilder ideas at bay. Witness, in fact, a judge yesterday, suspending the deportation of certain arrivals.
There is an absolute difference between a wish to provide protection against immigrants deigned to be a "threat", and the wish to obliterate from the face of the earth a race, or races, who are felt "not to belong". Any comparison between the two calls to mind, in my opinion, a distinct and continuing lack of understanding as to the forces which brought Trumpalot to power in the first place.
Trump has expressed a wish to obliterate Isis from the face of the earth. Good. I hope he succeeds, although he should be careful as to what replaces it  He has not, in any of his utterings, expressed a wish to obliterate entire people's, or religions, from the face of the earth, and any such suggestion, I am afraid, diminishes you and others, not him. |
my "principiis obsta" stands. do I really have to remind you that Hitler was democratically elected as well?
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:23 |
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Haven't even read all posts, just need to say: whoever you are, if you support or justify the Muslim ban, you are disgusting to me.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:24 |
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Sorry, BaldJean he wasn't. He was appointed by Hindenburg.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13721
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:27 |
The T wrote:
Haven't even read all posts, just need to say: whoever you are, if you support or justify the Muslim ban, you are disgusting to me. |
I have not done either, Teo, so I hope I remain undisgusting to you  I was merely pointing out the folly of comparing Trump to Hitler. It is ridiculous, sorry.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13721
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:31 |
BaldJean wrote:
lazland wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
npjnpj wrote:
According to some reports from international news agencies, some of the travelers (men and women) from the evil countries have been taken off planes in several US airports, put in handcuffs, and kept in custody for several hours. Mind that they are green card owners who have lived and worked in the USA for years. They've been let go now; just routine.
Did anyone say fascism? Surely not. A little heavy-handed, perhaps. Nothing like what was done to the Jews in Nazi Germany, beggar the thought.
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the Nazis started small as well. that's why I repeat "principiis obsta"
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I am sorry, Jean, but principiis obsta (nip it in the bud, or stop something at the beginning, for those unaware of the meaning) really doesn't apply here. Trump is many things, but he is not a fascist bully boy in charge of a bunch of thugs. He is a democratically elected head of a mature liberal democracy, with more than enough checks and balances to keep some of his wilder ideas at bay. Witness, in fact, a judge yesterday, suspending the deportation of certain arrivals.
There is an absolute difference between a wish to provide protection against immigrants deigned to be a "threat", and the wish to obliterate from the face of the earth a race, or races, who are felt "not to belong". Any comparison between the two calls to mind, in my opinion, a distinct and continuing lack of understanding as to the forces which brought Trumpalot to power in the first place.
Trump has expressed a wish to obliterate Isis from the face of the earth. Good. I hope he succeeds, although he should be careful as to what replaces it He has not, in any of his utterings, expressed a wish to obliterate entire people's, or religions, from the face of the earth, and any such suggestion, I am afraid, diminishes you and others, not him. |
my "principiis obsta" stands. do I really have to remind you that Hitler was democratically elected as well?
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Sorry, Jean, but that is unutterably wrong. Hindenburg was persuaded to appoint Hitler as Chancellor by many of the establishment figures of the Weimar Republic in a forlorn attempt to bring back populist support for a failed old guard. Hitler was not democratically elected at all. I find it utterly astonishing that I am required to point this out to a German citizen.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:35 |
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:37 |
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@lazland: In my personal opinion (which isn't worth much, I know, I know) it is entirely legitimate to compare Trump and Hitler. In fact it would be folly not do so.
I'd like to emphasize that I find your last comment to BaldJean inappropriate. It's arrogant and insulting. Please don't do that in future.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:38 |
lazland wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
lazland wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
npjnpj wrote:
According to some reports from international news agencies, some of the travelers (men and women) from the evil countries have been taken off planes in several US airports, put in handcuffs, and kept in custody for several hours. Mind that they are green card owners who have lived and worked in the USA for years. They've been let go now; just routine.
Did anyone say fascism? Surely not. A little heavy-handed, perhaps. Nothing like what was done to the Jews in Nazi Germany, beggar the thought.
|
the Nazis started small as well. that's why I repeat "principiis obsta"
|
I am sorry, Jean, but principiis obsta (nip it in the bud, or stop something at the beginning, for those unaware of the meaning) really doesn't apply here. Trump is many things, but he is not a fascist bully boy in charge of a bunch of thugs. He is a democratically elected head of a mature liberal democracy, with more than enough checks and balances to keep some of his wilder ideas at bay. Witness, in fact, a judge yesterday, suspending the deportation of certain arrivals.
There is an absolute difference between a wish to provide protection against immigrants deigned to be a "threat", and the wish to obliterate from the face of the earth a race, or races, who are felt "not to belong". Any comparison between the two calls to mind, in my opinion, a distinct and continuing lack of understanding as to the forces which brought Trumpalot to power in the first place.
Trump has expressed a wish to obliterate Isis from the face of the earth. Good. I hope he succeeds, although he should be careful as to what replaces it He has not, in any of his utterings, expressed a wish to obliterate entire people's, or religions, from the face of the earth, and any such suggestion, I am afraid, diminishes you and others, not him. |
my "principiis obsta" stands. do I really have to remind you that Hitler was democratically elected as well?
|
Sorry, Jean, but that is unutterably wrong. Hindenburg was persuaded to appoint Hitler as Chancellor by many of the establishment figures of the Weimar Republic in a forlorn attempt to bring back populist support for a failed old guard. Hitler was not democratically elected at all.
I find it utterly astonishing that I am required to point this out to a German citizen. |
Not Hitler directly but the NSDAP was elected as the biggest party in the Weimar Republic. A party that was quite clearly a vehicle for Hitler and his view. Hitler was elected democratically.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13721
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:39 |
npjnpj wrote:
<p ="msonormal"="">@lazland: I'm afraid that I'm entirely with BaldJean on this
one. What you're doing is very dangerous, in that you seem to be growing
blindfolds about what's going on, and instead getting lost in fine distinctions
that are, on a practical level, completely irrelevant.
In this case it is imperative to concentrate on the actual state of affairs and
be very aware that this is where it starts. Splitting historical hairs at this
point would be (sorry) pretty dumb. It's all just happening much too fast for
that.
I see Trump targeting an entire world religion covering many, many countries.
Do you seriously think that's not alarming because the NSDAP, Hitler, and
Goering went for the throat from a slightly different angle and out of
different motivations, so it's not comparable?
I would not be in the least surprised if one of the next steps will be The
Great Cleansing, Turkey-Erdogan style, and repression will be following
soon. You don't even have to learn from history, you can learn from the present, if you so wish. And yes, Donald Trump is a fascist bully. You can be that even if you're elected. Erdogan was elected in 2014.
<p ="msonormal"="">Those checks and balances you
mention will be worthless when they're steamrollered, and everyone will be
moping around, saying: 'How did it happen so fast? We weren't prepared.'
It's happening now, and it's really, really bad. Complacency is something the world can't afford at the moment.
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I am sorry, but I am not growing any blindfolds whatsoever. I was asked, in a thread, to believe that a comparison between Hitler and Trumpalot was a valid one, and it is patent nonsense. You might not agree with his policy agenda, and that is fine. I can't say much of it is to my immediate liking. However, what I have been trying to put across is that the Liberal position on this man is so wide of the mark so as to be almost laughable in those who ask us to trust them to run our nations. I have been trying to say that I understand why he was elected, and, indeed, have a great deal of sympathy with those sentiments. I say this, by the way, as a member of a left of centre Nationalist party in Wales, not immediately associated with nut jobs or fascists. So, let me, once again, put my view across, so I cannot be accused of being some loony right wing sympathiser. Donald Trump and Brexit, and, by the way, much of the movements in continental Europe, have been driven largely by an utter failure of liberal globalised economic and political policies, which have created vast disparities in wealth and opportunity, with many feeling unable to have any say at all in overturning such policies. If that is not understood, then there is no hope for any of us.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Gamemako
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:41 |
lazland wrote:
I have not done either, Teo, so I hope I remain undisgusting to you
I was merely pointing out the folly of comparing Trump to Hitler. It is ridiculous, sorry. |
If you were in Germany in 1930, it would have been ridiculous as well. In 2017, the history of it still seems ridiculous. Really? That sh*t actually happened?I think concern is warranted, but not panic. After all, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. People should be reminded that we have a Constitution here which opposes democratic excess. When the Constitution's protections are subverted, then it's time to panic. We're not there yet.
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Hail Eris!
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:43 |
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In Nazi Germany, they went after the Jews. Which nowadays people who have no clue must think were a gigantic group in Germany but I have news: they were a very small minority. Many non-Jewish people didn't even know many....
Just like Muslims in the US...
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:43 |
npjnpj wrote:
Sorry, BaldJean he wasn't. He was appointed by Hindenburg.
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yes, but after the Nazis had won the election. only very few believed what Hitler would be capable of. I don't want to wait until Trump comes up with something similar to the Emächtigunsgesetz (enabling act). not quite 6 years after Hitler came into power we had the Reichskristallnacht (Cystal Night, Nov 9th 1938). once again: principiis obsta
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:44 |
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@lazland:And this is all going to be better under Donald Trump because .... ?
Edited by npjnpj - January 29 2017 at 08:45
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13721
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:44 |
npjnpj wrote:
@lazland: In my personal opinion (which isn't worth much, I know, I know) it is entirely legitimate to compare Trump and Hitler. In fact it would be folly not do so.
I'd like to emphasize that I find your last comment to BaldJean inappropriate. It's arrogant and insulting. Please don't do that in future.
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My dear chap. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. It is grossly silly, but there you go. You are entitled to it, and I would defend your right to say it to the end. I was merely pointing out how silly it is, and I am entitled to that opinion. I would, though, rather you didn't tell me what I can, or cannot, say. There was absolutely no personal insult to Jean whatsoever. Indeed, I like both Jean and Friede, and we have, in the past, exchanged pleasant messages and posts on threads. Jean does not require you to be her "knight in shining armour" riding to her rescue. If she has a problem with that remark, then she will not be shy in telling me so, and I will deal with that as appropriate. Toodle pip!!!!
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:46 |
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What is also worrying is that all those Republican candidates and Congress members who so vehemently opposed he Muslim ban when it suited them, now that they are in power, are silent. Now their actual disdain of other religions but f**king christianity can be shown off.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:47 |
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Ah, I'm probably just offended. Sorry.
You're not lazland at all, you really are Sir Humphrey Appleby, aren't you?
Edited by npjnpj - January 29 2017 at 08:52
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:47 |
BaldJean wrote:
npjnpj wrote:
Sorry, BaldJean he wasn't. He was appointed by Hindenburg.
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yes, but after the Nazis had won the election.
only very few believed what Hitler would be capable of. I don't want to wait until Trump comes up with something similar to the Emächtigunsgesetz (enabling act). not quite 6 years after Hitler came into power we had the Reichskristallnacht (Cystal Night, Nov 9th 1938).
once again: principiis obsta
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there was a reason Hitler could be appointed by Hindenburg : the NSDAP was the largest party in Germany. That is being DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13721
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:53 |
npjnpj wrote:
Ah, I'm probably just offended. Sorry.
You're not lazland at all, you're Sir Humphrey Appleby, aren't you?
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Don't be offended by me. I am really quite nice, you know  Regrettably, Sir Humphrey is on a far larger salary scale than I am. Just ask the wife  I am merely a humble Tax Inspector at the coal face of UK civil service life.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13721
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 08:55 |
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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American Politics the 2016 edition
