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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: December 14 2016 at 22:28
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Some people have very bad taste and no no sense of what is good music...............
Some people can't catch the irony in their own words.
Some people have more well developed musical tastes than others who are satisfied with plan Jane music
And some people have no idea of what other members of this site listen to. If you feel that you have more developed musical tastes than a majority of the this site's members, then you are sadly mistaken. Perhaps it's time you closed your ears to your self obsessed music listening and take a serious look at what other PA members listen to. Btw, your "I know and appreciate better music than thou" stance is a real turnoff.
I tend to differentiate between appreciating something and actually liking it. I can appreciate Stockhausen and his music without liking it, and I can make the same observation of Roine Stolt and Miles Davis. This is why I tend to avoid making negative judgemental criticism of any piece of music - however, even if I like something I'll often only say so if it adds something to the conversation or is in response to a specific question.
This is also why I'll never state a preference between vinyl and CD - that I buy both formats regularly is all the information anyone really needs to know. Same is true it I own more than one album by an artist as I'm not quite dumb enough (yet) to buy a second album if I didn't like the first (though it is perfectly possible that I subsequently disliked the second).
Whether I like or dislike this particular piece of music is somewhat immaterial if we are simply talking about whether it is an example of proto-electronic prog or not... that it is an example of 1950s experimental music is beyond doubt and its use of electronics is important to the development electronic music in general even though it wasn't entirely composed using electronic sounds nor was it the first or most ground-breaking. Many other pieces from the that era are just as important.
To be regarded as Proto Electronic Prog then we have to view that in context of what Progressive Electronic music is and how that differs from all other forms of Electronic Music (including that composed by Cage, Riley, Ligetti and a whole raft of others such as Wendy Carlos and the all folks who worked at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop), and while this may not at first appear obvious, the key element there is the very close association with Progressive Rock, and here I would stress the Rock element of that, if it ain't Rock then it cannot be Prog Rock. Similar things happen in Jazz Rock/Fusion (some people forget the Fusion bit must include some Rock element to be regarded as Progressive Rock) and Avant-Prog (Avant Garde without the Rock element cannot seriously be considered as fitting Avant-Prog, it's just Avant Garde). For Poème électronique to be some kind of precursor to the Progressive Electronic subgenre then there has to be a rock association, as opposed to an experimental or electronic(ish) association otherwise Stravinsky and Bach would be regarded as Proto Prog (which they aren't and never can be).
So to be on this site everyone must listen to the same music - that seems to be what your are saying, don't think that is what this site is about.
I suspect you are responding to the wrong post as I can't see what you've written here has to do with what I posted but since you have, here goes.
What I have posted, if it relates to "what people should listen to" at all, would be saying the diametric opposite. Note here that it was YOU who criticised the taste of others for not liking the music you like whereas the implication in my post is that if no one ever says whether they like something or not then no one can make that snap assessment of them and they can listen to whatever the hell they ruddy well like.
btw: "you're" not "your". .
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
My comment is a response to the previous comments, which I believe are in rather poor taste, I started this thread and expressed an opinion on Varese's work Poeme Electronic (Varese was the major influence to Zappa's work if you didn't know) and then get all the trolls coming out of the wood work stating that this is mot music, yeah so of course I going to react and I can tell you I'm significantly older the 30 - as alluded to by another poster. I thought this was a relatively free thinking site but this thread has shown un ugly nasty side to PA which I find repulsive.
I never mentioned your age however I have asserted the validity of Poème électronique as music in an previous post so this has fu_kall to do with me. If you have a problem with other posters in this thread then take it up with them, not me, but frankly chief you need to be a lot more open minded towards the opinions and views of others to survive on this site.
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
Posted: December 14 2016 at 23:22
Dean wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Some people have very bad taste and no no sense of what is good music...............
Some people can't catch the irony in their own words.
Some people have more well developed musical tastes than others who are satisfied with plan Jane music
And some people have no idea of what other members of this site listen to. If you feel that you have more developed musical tastes than a majority of the this site's members, then you are sadly mistaken. Perhaps it's time you closed your ears to your self obsessed music listening and take a serious look at what other PA members listen to. Btw, your "I know and appreciate better music than thou" stance is a real turnoff.
I tend to differentiate between appreciating something and actually liking it. I can appreciate Stockhausen and his music without liking it, and I can make the same observation of Roine Stolt and Miles Davis. This is why I tend to avoid making negative judgemental criticism of any piece of music - however, even if I like something I'll often only say so if it adds something to the conversation or is in response to a specific question.
This is also why I'll never state a preference between vinyl and CD - that I buy both formats regularly is all the information anyone really needs to know. Same is true it I own more than one album by an artist as I'm not quite dumb enough (yet) to buy a second album if I didn't like the first (though it is perfectly possible that I subsequently disliked the second).
Whether I like or dislike this particular piece of music is somewhat immaterial if we are simply talking about whether it is an example of proto-electronic prog or not... that it is an example of 1950s experimental music is beyond doubt and its use of electronics is important to the development electronic music in general even though it wasn't entirely composed using electronic sounds nor was it the first or most ground-breaking. Many other pieces from the that era are just as important.
To be regarded as Proto Electronic Prog then we have to view that in context of what Progressive Electronic music is and how that differs from all other forms of Electronic Music (including that composed by Cage, Riley, Ligetti and a whole raft of others such as Wendy Carlos and the all folks who worked at the BBC Radiophonic Workshop), and while this may not at first appear obvious, the key element there is the very close association with Progressive Rock, and here I would stress the Rock element of that, if it ain't Rock then it cannot be Prog Rock. Similar things happen in Jazz Rock/Fusion (some people forget the Fusion bit must include some Rock element to be regarded as Progressive Rock) and Avant-Prog (Avant Garde without the Rock element cannot seriously be considered as fitting Avant-Prog, it's just Avant Garde). For Poème électronique to be some kind of precursor to the Progressive Electronic subgenre then there has to be a rock association, as opposed to an experimental or electronic(ish) association otherwise Stravinsky and Bach would be regarded as Proto Prog (which they aren't and never can be).
So to be on this site everyone must listen to the same music - that seems to be what your are saying, don't think that is what this site is about.
I suspect you are responding to the wrong post as I can't see what you've written here has to do with what I posted but since you have, here goes.
What I have posted, if it relates to "what people should listen to" at all, would be saying the diametric opposite. Note here that it was YOU who criticised the taste of others for not liking the music you like whereas the implication in my post is that if no one ever says whether they like something or not then no one can make that snap assessment of them and they can listen to whatever the hell they ruddy well like.
btw: "you're" not "your". .
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
My comment is a response to the previous comments, which I believe are in rather poor taste, I started this thread and expressed an opinion on Varese's work Poeme Electronic (Varese was the major influence to Zappa's work if you didn't know) and then get all the trolls coming out of the wood work stating that this is mot music, yeah so of course I going to react and I can tell you I'm significantly older the 30 - as alluded to by another poster. I thought this was a relatively free thinking site but this thread has shown un ugly nasty side to PA which I find repulsive.
I never mentioned your age however I have asserted the validity of Poème électronique as music in an previous post so this has fu_kall to do with me. If you have a problem with other posters in this thread then take it up with them, not me, but frankly chief you need to be a lot more open minded towards the opinions and views of others to survive on this site.
My response regarding the 30 y/o age was in response to zravkaptand not to yourself either "you're"or not "your".
Your definitions are fine but they are your definitions and nothing more............ you seem to quote Wiki when it suits you..............
Edited by EddieRUKiddingVarese - December 14 2016 at 23:23
"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits!
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: December 14 2016 at 23:42
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
My response regarding the 30 y/o age was in response to zravkaptand not to yourself either "you're"or not "your".
I know, but your response quoted my post. Ergo, it was nothing to do with me. If you have an issue with Darryl then quote his post and take it up with him, not me.
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Your definitions are fine but they are your definitions and nothing more............
I have defined nothing, my comments are opinions and discussion points and nothing more. People falsely presume that internet posts are statements of irrefutable defined fact when in reality they are nothing but opinion (albeit backed up with suitably chosen citations).
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
you seem to quote Wiki when it suits you..............
As does everyone. Wikipedia is authored and edited by many different people so it doesn't present a coherent and consistent view on anything. It would be unwise and somewhat reckless to cite it as the ultimate truth of everything, especially when it gives two differing opinions on the same topic.
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
Posted: December 15 2016 at 00:14
Dean wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
My response regarding the 30 y/o age was in response to zravkaptand not to yourself either "you're"or not "your".
I know, but your response quoted my post. Ergo, it was nothing to do with me. If you have an issue with Darryl then quote his post and take it up with him, not me.
It quoted your post and others.......
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Your definitions are fine but they are your definitions and nothing more............
I have defined nothing, my comments are opinions and discussion points and nothing more. People falsely presume that internet posts are statements of irrefutable defined fact when in reality they are nothing but opinion (albeit backed up with suitably chosen citations).
I didn't see any suitable citations
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
you seem to quote Wiki when it suits you..............
As does everyone. Wikipedia is authored and edited by many different people so it doesn't present a coherent and consistent view on anything. It would be unwise and somewhat reckless to cite it as the ultimate truth of everything, especially when it gives two differing opinions on the same topic.
So why do you quote Wiki at all.....
"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits!
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: December 15 2016 at 00:59
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
So why do you quote Wiki at all.....
Actually, I didn't and rarely do. I merely linked to their Electroacoustic Music page for anyone who hadn't heard the term before since not everyone is knowledgeable on early experimental music and occasionally some presume that it's all "Electronic Music". The only other reference I made to Wikipedia was in response to Doug's post on the bottom of page 1, where again, I neither cited nor quoted Wiki but merely pointed out that it also listed Edgard Varèse's Poème électronique under "Examples of notable electroacoustic works".
Then, you can prove anything with bloody facts mate.
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15916
Posted: December 15 2016 at 01:04
Ummm.......George Harrison - Electronic Sound ??? I know it's just Moog generated noise from, well, Bernie Krause in reality, but it's the earliest form of true 'electronic' I have on vinyl.....
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: December 15 2016 at 04:28
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
So to be on this site everyone must listen to the same music - that seems to be what your are saying, don't think that is what this site is about.
My comment is a response to the previous comments, which I believe are in rather poor taste, I started this thread and expressed an opinion on Varese's work Poeme Electronic (Varese was the major influence to Zappa's work if you didn't know) and then get all the trolls coming out of the wood work stating that this is mot music, yeah so of course I going to react and I can tell you I'm significantly older the 30 - as alluded to by another poster. I thought this was a relatively free thinking site but this thread has shown un ugly nasty side to PA which I find repulsive.
With over 20 subgenres, it is beyond reason that "everyone should listen to the same music" on this website. This site is free thinking and of free speech. I, unlike Dean, make distinctions between what I consider to be acoustic electronic manipulated sounds and music. You proposed that Varese's electronically manipulated sounds are music. Technically, it is music, but very poor music, IMO. And that's the key phrase: "In my opinion." You have stated your's clearly but offer no reason why this piece is good, other than the fact that you personally like it, and have stated little to support your claim that it's Proto Electronic Prog.
Come up with some reasons and qualifications of why you think it's both protoandprog, and I'll be happy to talk further. If not, then this post will have failed to advance your claims.
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
Posted: December 15 2016 at 13:55
SteveG wrote:
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
So to be on this site everyone must listen to the same music - that seems to be what your are saying, don't think that is what this site is about.
My comment is a response to the previous comments, which I believe are in rather poor taste, I started this thread and expressed an opinion on Varese's work Poeme Electronic (Varese was the major influence to Zappa's work if you didn't know) and then get all the trolls coming out of the wood work stating that this is mot music, yeah so of course I going to react and I can tell you I'm significantly older the 30 - as alluded to by another poster. I thought this was a relatively free thinking site but this thread has shown un ugly nasty side to PA which I find repulsive.
With over 20 subgenres, it is beyond reason that "everyone should listen to the same music" on this website. This site is free thinking and of free speech. I, unlike Dean, make distinctions between what I consider to be acoustic electronic manipulated sounds and music. You proposed that Varese's electronically manipulated sounds are music. Technically, it is music, but very poor music, IMO. And that's the key phrase: "In my opinion." You have stated your's clearly but offer no reason why this piece is good, other than the fact that you personally like it, and have stated little to support your claim that it's Proto Electronic Prog.
Come up with some reasons and qualifications of why you think it's both protoandprog, and I'll be happy to talk further. If not, then this post will have failed to advance your claims.
Circular arguments are such fun, why is it not music as you state your is just an opinion without any supporting facts...... The responses received to this posts would seem to indicate a very closed mind set. Varese was in fact a major influence on many Prog rockers and in particular the use of sound collages popular in early proto prog by artists including Zappa, Chicago and even the Beatles among others.
Joined: December 03 2011
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 705
Posted: December 16 2016 at 00:02
I've started to investigate this sort of music in the last couple of months after wondering just what one could have listened to fifty years ago, and have been very surprised to discover just how experimental it all was compared to the rock music of the time. The composers seem to be trying to escape from the rigid sets of notes, timings and orchestral tones and develop something completely new, but as a result of just concentrating on hearing the absorbing atmospheres I am now beginning to pay more attention to the patterns of sounds going on around me and wondering just what is and isn't music. My favourite piece from Varèse at the moment is Déserts - 1954 and he was incorporating industrial noise and feedback into an orchestral piece . The only problem with the Decca Complete Works CD I have is that some faint hearted engineer turned the tape sections down so low they sound like they're in the next room, but fortunately they're separate tracks on the CD so having done a lossless import to iTunes I could set them for a 40% volume boost. Now when playing the piece back through headphones the iPod automatically whacks the volume up then back down at the end of the track to avoid being deafened by the next orchestral section - a true wonder of technology .
Edited by 2dogs - December 16 2016 at 02:55
"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
Joined: April 11 2014
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Points: 20604
Posted: December 16 2016 at 04:10
EddieRUKiddingVarese wrote:
Circular arguments are such fun, why is it not music as you state your is just an opinion without any supporting facts...... The responses received to this posts would seem to indicate a very closed mind set. Varese was in fact a major influence on many Prog rockers and in particular the use of sound collages popular in early proto prog by artists including Zappa, Chicago and even the Beatles among others.
I find arguments to be circular only when I have to quote myself to be clear, so I'll state my position again. And I quote: "Technically, it is music, but very poor music, IMO."
I never said that it was not music. Or that Varese was not universally influential. I said that you failed to provide opinions of, once again, why you consider this work to be prototypical electronic prog.
Now, carry on ignoring my request for opinions concerning same, and spin the wheel again.
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
Posted: December 17 2016 at 03:09
As three different people in this thread have used the term circular argument incorrectly perhaps we need to adopt this term for arguments that end-up where back where they started and use an alternative term for arguments that start from where they intend to end. That difference is far from subtle, arguments that go around in circles are merely stalled arguments that do not progress, they are little better than two people shouting "because I said so!" at each other ad infinitum, whereas a circular argument is one that begins by stating an assumption, then uses that assumption as the conclusion of the argument. The major difference is the latter correct usage of the term circular argument is not a stalled argument, it is an example of a logical fallacy. Of course the irony there is an alternative term for circular argument is begging the question, which also gets used incorrectly more often than it is used correctly. In reality most of the time we know what people mean by these terms when they are used correctly or incorrectly, and we can tell when they are being used incorrectly because of the context in which they are used. People are smart like that, words themselves are dumb and require applied interpretation to understand the connotation being used in a particular context. Similarly, knowing that "your" has been used when the writer meant "you're" is another example of applied interpretation based upon contextual usage.
And that neatly illustrates the problem with words and phrases that have defined meanings in a specific context that differ from their everyday usage. Calling Varèse's work "electronic music" is perfectly fine in an everyday context but it is inaccurate in a musicological discussion, which is precisely what you are inviting if you are using it to show that Poème électronique is (and I quote) "The Original Proto Electronic Prog". That statement (which is a conclusion that has no supportive evidence or any argued reasoning), implies many assumptions Steve has rightfully observed that you need to show are valid to progress this as a musicological discussion to prove that conclusion.
We are not going to do your work for you here. Stating that Varèse was influential on some musicians (some of whom were Progressive Rock musicians) does not show that his work was Proto-Progressive Electronic music, influence alone is insufficient evidence that the piece in question, Poème électronique, is in any way related to Progressive Electronic music. Note here, and this has been stated several times in other similar discussions, that influence only applies to music that is related to Prog, it does not apply to music that was the precursor to Prog, which in this context has to be Progressive Electronic as we define it on this site for a thread that resides in the 'Proto-Prog and Prog Related Lounge'. Musicological discussions have to be precise to hold any validity. Steve, David and I may differ on what we define as "music" but we are in tacit agreement that Poème électronique falls short of the musical framework that would classify it specifically as a precursor to Progressive Electronic music.
Here, accusing people of having a closed mindset because they do not agree with you is a logical fallacy that fails to prove any of your implied assumptions or your stated conclusion. Being dismissive of the people arguing against you does not invalidate their arguments, it does not prove them to be wrong and it certainly does not demonstrate that you are in any way right.
Joined: October 05 2013
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 21:15
^ Interesting thread. For what it's worth i do find Varèse and other avant-garde to be quite musical. Established music, no but there are patterns that are submerged in those sounds.
The following is a dictionary definition of music:
mu·sic
(myo͞o′zĭk)
n.
1. Theart of arrangingsounds in time so as to produce a continuous,unified,andevocativecomposition, asthroughmelody,harmony,rhythm,andtimbre.
2. Vocal or instrumentalsoundspossessing a degree of melody,harmony, or rhythm.
3.
a. A musicalcomposition.
b. Thewritten or printedscoreforsuch a composition.
c. Suchscoresconsidered as a group:We keepourmusic in a stacknearthepiano.
4. A musicalaccompaniment.
5. A particularcategory or kind of music.
6. An aestheticallypleasing or harmonioussound or combination of sounds:themusic of thewind in thepines.
It seems to me that many people's definition of music is not in sync. Most deem it as music that they are familiar with whereas if you extended the definition into infinity, it could be deemed the entire universe is nothing more than a musical orchestra where all energy that vibrates at a certain frequency harmonizes in tandem. It should also be remembered that everyone's perception of sound and sonic relationships varies as well. Some people find all music to be nothing more than noise and it literally drives them crazy to listen to a simple Rolling Stones song for example while others like the avant-garde genii of the ages can perceive and compose music of an infinately higher calibre. While not everyone will hear what is going on, others will and very few human individuals have the capacity to grasp every form of music that has been expressed.
But enough of all that! I really just wanted to share a VERY cool various artist box set of all the early electronic pioneers who were very influential in all kinds of cool things that came later. Proto-prog or not, it is truly an interesting 3 CD set.
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: December 17 2016 at 23:02
^ that is indeed cool, as is this 5-CD collection of French electroacoustic artists from GRM, which includes other notables such as Boulez and Ferrari as well as Varèse'sDésert: Interpolation 1:
Joined: October 05 2013
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Points: 15243
Posted: December 18 2016 at 21:28
Dean wrote:
^ that is indeed cool, as is this 5-CD collection of French electroacoustic artists from GRM, which includes other notables such as Boulez and Ferrari as well as Varèse'sDésert: Interpolation 1:
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