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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2016 at 23:28
Not like many of your comments lazland have been shining examples of unity and pulling togetherSmile

I have said before, and I mean this: policies over party. If Trump achieves positives, I will support it. 
Because of the game he plays we still have no idea what we'll get. It really could be anything from a moderate Republican (like he used to be) to just kicking back and letting Pence and co run the show. 
Which would actually be a far worse thought to me than Trump actually running things!

My confidence in Trump is low, but I will support him whenever something good is done. 

As for the states seceeding comment. What? I truly, sincerely believe economic liberalism is better for the country, and of course believe in social progress. If in this dream bubble of ours Texas was to leave...they honest to god can't stand the thought of being in Clinton/Dem run US anymore...why not make us all happy?
Besides, like many righties wouldn't salivate at the thought of California and New York City being jettisoned from the country??LOL

Everyone is so one sided these days...it's always "liberals this!" "Republicans that!" how one side will react but never think how your own would. I think I'm generally pretty fair. I just get driven up a wall when I hear these things like "Rigged! Crooked corrupt $hillary stealing the election the system is broken!" to next day after winning "all is fine, now quit moaning about the system!"  or how liberals react so poorly....for 8 years the right here in the US has been an utterly unfair nightmare that's taken unprecedented actions in obstructionism. f**k, there are people who are saying "Accept Trump as President" that still refuse to accept Obama was born in the damn United States. How about some damn fairness if people wanna call out liberal actions? 




Edited by JJLehto - November 30 2016 at 23:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2016 at 23:56
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

My fear is, for several reasons, Trump may not need to do that. IF he can keep nabbing a few small wins like this, may be all he needs. 
His cult of personality is so strong I kinda think he'll get a pass on all the things he'll fail to do. Unfortunately. 
 
This is how we thought Modi's term was panning out (making a big deal out of small initiatives which his acolytes would trumpet on social media) until he unleashed the demonetization bomb. So maybe a non performing Trump is better than one who decides to act on at least his major promises in a substantial way.

Very fair point. It's scary to say this but "We shall see" I honestly have no damn clue what we'll get with TrumpLOL
I also remembered the GOP is still deeply fractured, now even more so with both the mainstream and tea party generally opposed to Trumpism. So really alot will depend on how they all manage to get along. 


Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

My fear is, for several reasons, Trump may not need to do that. IF he can keep nabbing a few small wins like this, may be all he needs. 
His cult of personality is so strong I kinda think he'll get a pass on all the things he'll fail to do. Unfortunately. 
We have ways to deconstruct his cult: The left wing media!

LOL
Sadly a large number of people don't use any media anymore! I can get on cam and say Clinton eats babies I saw it, and it'd become a trending story. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 00:47
I think both sides - left and right - are culpable in perpetrating identity politics. I am not particularly interested in which side is more culpable; if you're aligned with the right, you will blame the left more and vice versa. It has always been like this but lately it (identity politics) has surged to dangerous levels. I can sort of understand why Steve (lazland) may appear to blame the left/liberals more. See the conservatives have the 'excuse' (albeit not entirely true) of being a little less literate. What is the excuse for liberals? We have ignored the warnings given by great thinkers to maintain our own individuality and not fall prey to politicians attempts to divide us. Demanding allegiance to one of two groups is neither productive nor necessary and the consequences are going to be messy. It happens here too by the way. Quite amazing how the same undesirable trends in society sweep across nations like they were epidemics. I have been told by more than one Indian American that moderates are considered weak/cowardly in USA. Don't know how far it's true but good luck with that. The belief that a compromise is inherently weak is borne out of closed mindedness more than anything.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 01:05
No surprise, Nancy Pelosi easily won her bid to remain leader of the House Democrats. 
Fairly surprising: 63 House Democrats (1/3 of them all) voted against her. 

This really is a pretty surprising result, and the articles implies behind the positive words and confidence, the vote was pretty distressing. The vote was secret, but judging by the names mentioned throughout...I'm guessing the 63 votes were a combo of progressives and blue dogs. Tim Ryan himself is a working class, anti trade bill Democrat who's district voted for Trump. This is something I think we should embrace, or risk being the minority for a long long time.

Personally, I love Peosi, huge fan but 13 years (and counting) is a long time in a leadership role, and given our terrible results in 2010, 14 and 16..maybe some turnover, some young fresh faces, would've been wise. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 01:26
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

I think both sides - left and right - are culpable in perpetrating identity politics. I am not particularly interested in which side is more culpable; if you're aligned with the right, you will blame the left more and vice versa. It has always been like this but lately it (identity politics) has surged to dangerous levels. I can sort of understand why Steve (lazland) may appear to blame the left/liberals more. See the conservatives have the 'excuse' (albeit not entirely true) of being a little less literate. What is the excuse for liberals? We have ignored the warnings given by great thinkers to maintain our own individuality and not fall prey to politicians attempts to divide us. Demanding allegiance to one of two groups is neither productive nor necessary and the consequences are going to be messy. It happens here too by the way. Quite amazing how the same undesirable trends in society sweep across nations like they were epidemics. I have been told by more than one Indian American that moderates are considered weak/cowardly in USA. Don't know how far it's true but good luck with that. The belief that a compromise is inherently weak is borne out of closed mindedness more than anything.

Clap100% agreed my friend. 
Really can't add a thing to it. 

I just want fairness. Steve isn't the only one, I see it all over social media and real life...this constant yelling at the left when they seem, well no different or better. "Regressive left" is a term that's really made me laugh, because the behavior of so many righties is extremely regressive. I have no issue bashing the left, in fact I agree...their dive into identity politics was quite depressing. It was one of my major issues with the Clinton campaign, and as we saw it didn't even pan out in the end. Guess it cuts both ways...when you use identity politics to divide and conquer, it's damn hard to then reunify the Obama coalition by assuming identity politicsLOL

For sure, the extreme surge in identity politics is very scary. Here in the states this cop situation really got out of hand. Like most people, I support, respect and have no issue with cops but I also acknowledge the very obvious issues out there, and believe these clearly racist, abusive cops shouldn't be around. But it's impossible to make this point, even though the majority probably agree. It's either "pro cop" or "anti cop/pro violence". You can't ever say "Hey, that cop was clearly racist and out of line" without being told (yes I was told this to my face) that you condone killing cops, mob violence etc  Likewise if you ever say one thing supportive of cops you are racist. I was unable to get a word in past "Well now not every cop is racist and terrible" or if I criticized some of the more extreme/foolish protests out there. 

Really, both sides have gotten way out of control. Identity politics man....the racial element mixed in has been quite vicious too. Its ugly. Sorry to hear it's happening in India too. No doubt this is a global phenomenon. 
I've also come to the conclusion that people are malleable. The masses, (sorry to sound so elitist!) seem to generally go with what they are told. With time, sometimes not much, they can be shaped. I believe in bottom up, informed decision making, but sadly things tend to happen from the top down. The same people that were for GW Bush and sane Republicans now are full Tea Party and are ready to roll back all the New Deal. Individual people I have seen their views change over these 8 years. 
So it really is disturbing to see these things happening at the national level....people may be more willing to go along/change their minds to it than we want to accept.


Edited by JJLehto - December 01 2016 at 01:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 07:35
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

 
I've also come to the conclusion that people are malleable. The masses, (sorry to sound so elitist!) seem to generally go with what they are told. With time, sometimes not much, they can be shaped. I believe in bottom up, informed decision making, but sadly things tend to happen from the top down. The same people that were for GW Bush and sane Republicans now are full Tea Party and are ready to roll back all the New Deal. Individual people I have seen their views change over these 8 years. 
So it really is disturbing to see these things happening at the national level....people may be more willing to go along/change their minds to it than we want to accept.

I agree, except that it's not just the proverbial masses but even well educated people in comfortable jobs who are somehow terribly susceptible to propaganda.  For instance, the eugenics movement had a frightening amount of public support.  We had our own eugenic back in the 70s, one Mr Sanjay Gandhi, who forced sterilisation on the masses and a lot of people in my section of society, i.e educated middle class white collar, think he was right. If the dumb masses don't stop breeding like rabbits, the state's gotta intervene for the greater good (of who?), right?  A college education does not educate people in compassion and humanity.  It only teaches us to be smart and/or articulate so that we can get better paying jobs than the ones who didn't study...and that's it.  If something purporting to be news or coming from a supposedly authoritative source propounds views that conform with those that we may hold privately (but perhaps be afraid to voice), we may be easily swayed into believing it.  I agree fully with what Blacksword just said in the other thread.  Over the last few years, I have come to really dislike politicians.  They are worse than despotic emperors with whom at least there was no pretense as to who they were.  But politicians have zero accountability for the most part and mislead people over and over just to win elections at great cost to the very people who voted them to power.  At this point, my faith in democracy has worn thin but since I don't know what the alternative is LOL, I'd better hold on to hope, if nothing else.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 14:17
Alec Baldwin as Trump on SNL. Trump picks his new Presidential cabinet! LOL

Edited by SteveG - December 01 2016 at 14:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2016 at 16:30
The more we find out about Trump's "deal" to "keep" Carrier jobs in Indiana, the worse we realise it is.

He could've played hardball and threatened to end the Pentagon's contracts with their defense contractor parent company like I've been hearing conservatives claim he did, but no. He rolled over and promised million dollar tax cuts that are unneeded and undeserved. Now Carrier can get away with outsourcing another 700 jobs from another Indiana plant while they and Trump can keep up a facade of "saving jobs". It's ridiculous.

Trump, on the campaign trail, had a rare moment of clarity where he realised that incentives have never kept companies from outsourcing. Makes a lot of sense when you remember that there is a small resurgence of manufacturing from smaller companies, yet major corporations that barely pay any taxes just can't bother to pay living wages to their workers. Of course, we already knew that Trump is a liar, hypocrite, oathbreaker, con-man who only cares about making the rich richer.

Well, touchdown Trump PR.

Art of The Deal my ass.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2016 at 00:21
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

 
I've also come to the conclusion that people are malleable. The masses, (sorry to sound so elitist!) seem to generally go with what they are told. With time, sometimes not much, they can be shaped. I believe in bottom up, informed decision making, but sadly things tend to happen from the top down. The same people that were for GW Bush and sane Republicans now are full Tea Party and are ready to roll back all the New Deal. Individual people I have seen their views change over these 8 years. 
So it really is disturbing to see these things happening at the national level....people may be more willing to go along/change their minds to it than we want to accept.

I agree, except that it's not just the proverbial masses but even well educated people in comfortable jobs who are somehow terribly susceptible to propaganda.  For instance, the eugenics movement had a frightening amount of public support.  We had our own eugenic back in the 70s, one Mr Sanjay Gandhi, who forced sterilisation on the masses and a lot of people in my section of society, i.e educated middle class white collar, think he was right. If the dumb masses don't stop breeding like rabbits, the state's gotta intervene for the greater good (of who?), right?  A college education does not educate people in compassion and humanity.  It only teaches us to be smart and/or articulate so that we can get better paying jobs than the ones who didn't study...and that's it.  If something purporting to be news or coming from a supposedly authoritative source propounds views that conform with those that we may hold privately (but perhaps be afraid to voice), we may be easily swayed into believing it.  I agree fully with what Blacksword just said in the other thread.  Over the last few years, I have come to really dislike politicians.  They are worse than despotic emperors with whom at least there was no pretense as to who they were.  But politicians have zero accountability for the most part and mislead people over and over just to win elections at great cost to the very people who voted them to power.  At this point, my faith in democracy has worn thin but since I don't know what the alternative is LOL, I'd better hold on to hope, if nothing else.  

My bad, that DOES sound kind of badLOL I meant masses literally, most people. There is NO doubt about it...smart, educated people are just as open to it. In fact it's in some of my very smart engineering friends, or the one with the masters, that I have seen the most disturbing drift rightward. Moderate Republicans who, for example, wouldn't dabble in Tea Party "slash it all!" stuff that now sound like pre New Dealers, or now quote Breitbart. 
Yeah same...the post 2008 era has REALLY left an awful taste in my mouth. It seems to get worse by the year, then everyone is shocked when Brexit or Trump or Sanders pop up! 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2016 at 00:29
Yup the Carrier thing is such a joke.
It turns out that 800 jobs will be saved (not 1100...300 of the jobs Trump touted were not slated to go overseas it turns out) at a cost of $7 million over 10 years in tax breaks. Now in terms of dollars and cents, the deal actually isn't a bad one BUT about 1000 jobs are still being sent overseas, and my biggest issue with this:

This is literally crony capitalism. This is the government saying to one, specific, company "Hey, I'll give you $ for keeping some jobs here". I read that Trump supposedly softened his stance on tariffs for AC imports...pretty darn convenient for the AC company who's still sending jobs to MexicoLOL They are getting tax breaks, can still profit on the jobs they do ship away, in exchange for keeping 800 jobs here. There is indeed the issue of Carrier and gov contracts....
Collusion/crony capitalism whatever you'd like to call it at its finest. 



Edited by JJLehto - December 02 2016 at 00:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2016 at 00:41
Deleted by me


Edited by npjnpj - December 02 2016 at 01:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2016 at 10:36
Bernie Sanders, in response to the House Science Committee copying a climate denial tweet from Breitbart:

"Where'd you get your PhD? Trump University?" LOL


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2016 at 04:07
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Bernie Sanders, in response to the House Science Committee copying a climate denial tweet from Breitbart:

"Where'd you get your PhD? Trump University?" LOL


LOL And this is why I personally think that Bernie would have beaten Trump if he had run against him (aside from the excellent World At Large editorial explaining why that Bernie would have won Wink). It's his ability to connect with people and speak "our" language. The same gift that Trump has. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2016 at 06:24
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Bernie Sanders, in response to the House Science Committee copying a climate denial tweet from Breitbart:

"Where'd you get your PhD? Trump University?" LOL


LOL And this is why I personally think that Bernie would have beaten Trump if he had run against him (aside from the excellent World At Large editorial explaining why that Bernie would have won Wink). It's his ability to connect with people and speak "our" language. The same gift that Trump has. 

I mean, I agreeLOL
But really, I get there are so many variables, and who knows what factors would've arisen in a different scenario that we just cant know, but I think his popularity would've tipped it. I mean that's basically what this election was, an (un)popularity contest. I'll take the guy who was actually fairly popular over Trump!

And yeah, I laughed whenever people said Bernie would've been too soft...he couldn't have ran against Trump etc etc I asked if they've ever seen the guyLOL Just like how I saw more than a few Democrats say he would've been unprepared and Congress would've ran him over, stuff like that. Pffffft I recall some relatively unknown guy who was just a 4 year Senator who ran a "vague" campaign that was criticized as fluff and etc
He turned out to be a pretty darn good President! Sad my fellow Democrats have gotten so enamored with party politics their minds are shutting down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2016 at 06:49
Guess this isn't the most appropriate place for European news but this is the only active politics thread and there's some relevance actually. 

2 pieces of news today:
-Italian's massively reject Renzi's referendum to overhaul (make less democratic) their parliament to pass his, I assume, unpopular neoliberal reforms. Seems a combo of right and left wing populists allied to help stop it. http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/dec/04/italian-referendum-and-austrian-presidential-election-live

From that, I saw that the results of the Austrian election are finally in and the Green candidate just topped their own anti immigrant right winger. 

Relevant because two more examples of the anti establishment fervor and rise of both left/right populist parties. The US is indeed part of the global trend. Renzi's move really was something, this is the very reason populism is popping up. People mock it, laugh at various "exits" but there's real problems, and the global neoliberal establishment really has blown it: economically screwed it all up, politically out of touch, unwilling to change and keep taking anti democratic actions. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2016 at 06:54
^Yes, the world is taking a shift to the right, mostly as a reaction to globalization I should think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2016 at 07:27
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, the world is taking a shift to the right, mostly as a reaction to globalization I should think.


There is no "should think" about it, it is absolutely and definitely a reaction to globalisation, and its adherents, who, of course, have done marvellously well out of it.

The Italian referendum is but the latest manifestation of this.

I genuinely believe that we are witnessing events of historical importance. The end of global capitalism, the end of centralised government, the end of liberal metropolitan elites running government, and the commencement of a new phase of rising nationalist feelings giving rise to new economic and political structures. Nobody will be immune from this, and I actually think the turmoil we will experience in the west will be as nothing compared to that which will happen in countries such as China, Russia, and the Middle East.

I also think, by the way, that the differentials that our generation think of in terms of left and right wing will have had their day by the time my son is my age.

As ever, humanity will come out the other side stronger and will survive. I suspect, though, that it will be an extremely bumpy, and, at times, nasty ride to the other side.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2016 at 08:50
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, the world is taking a shift to the right, mostly as a reaction to globalization I should think.


There is no "should think" about it, it is absolutely and definitely a reaction to globalisation, and its adherents, who, of course, have done marvellously well out of it.

The Italian referendum is but the latest manifestation of this.

I genuinely believe that we are witnessing events of historical importance. The end of global capitalism, the end of centralised government, the end of liberal metropolitan elites running government, and the commencement of a new phase of rising nationalist feelings giving rise to new economic and political structures. Nobody will be immune from this, and I actually think the turmoil we will experience in the west will be as nothing compared to that which will happen in countries such as China, Russia, and the Middle East.

I also think, by the way, that the differentials that our generation think of in terms of left and right wing will have had their day by the time my son is my age.

As ever, humanity will come out the other side stronger and will survive. I suspect, though, that it will be an extremely bumpy, and, at times, nasty ride to the other side.
I agree that we are moving in a direction away from global capitalism, centralized government, etc., Steve. But to be honest, at 65 years of age, I'm programmed to view this move as a shift to the right. Only millennials will eventually view this historical event as being bipartisan, non-left elitist, or what have you. I should think. Wink
 
*In good conscience, Steve, I must say that the ultimate outcome is yet to be determined, and even if it turns out well economically, it begs to ask the question, at what cost will it to be to us socially? This move towards nationalism on the American side of the pond has unearthed every form of degenerate that rallies in the name of nationalism. As I've said, this form of nationalistic "politician" needs a limousine to deposit him to his park bench at the end of the day. Again, I must ask the question, what will be the cost?
 
*Edit: In good conscience.


Edited by SteveG - December 05 2016 at 10:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2016 at 09:34
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/the-dark-side-of-globalization-why-seattles-1999-protesters-were-right/282831/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2016 at 22:29
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, the world is taking a shift to the right, mostly as a reaction to globalization I should think.

More to the right, but there's been some leftist resurgence as well. Again due to globalization but also the global push for austerity and neoliberalism. Both sides are venting frustration at establishment politics that is woefully out of touch with the people and sold out to certain interests. In Italy they tried to altar the f-ing constitution to make it easier to pass their unpopular ideas, this is lunacyLOL
I guess people are naturally conservative in nature, even those who may be liberal in politics, so understandable it takes an overall rightward swing. And now that immigration and muslims have gotten into the picture....


In a very real way, we're repeating history. The world rejected "laissez faire" before. Be it socialism or fascism, or moderate capitalism, most of the Earth gave a finger to it. I know we're not laissez-faire today, but neoliberalism has still brought the same results. Left and right rejections of it, loss of faith in the establishment, a turn inward...rejecting global society, immigrants, embrace of authoritarian rhetoric. 




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