Medieval Influences and England role in Prog Rock |
Post Reply | Page <12345 6> |
Author | |||
The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13203 |
Posted: September 18 2016 at 10:39 | ||
Yes, people fall into a trap of considering early modern/Renaissance music as "medieval" when it is not. There is not much popular accord for the troubadours' chansons, rondeaus or virelais in rock music. Much that Fairport or Steeleye played is not medieval but folk tunes found in Child Ballads, wherein only a handful can be dated prior to 1600. There is not much of a market for something like this which is actually medieval (but cool nonetheless - love this from Maddy Prior and June Tabor): Of course, a few Italian monks made some big bucks off of "Chant" but that is an anomaly. |
|||
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
|||
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 20 2008 Location: Seattle, WA Status: Offline Points: 887 |
Posted: September 18 2016 at 21:52 | ||
this is awesome too
Wer ich eyn falck - Invicto regi jubilo Henrick Finck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01d8ziftE1Q You might feel your heart singing it. It would make an awesome prog song if it's gentleness was left unaltered but still electrified.
Edited by brainstormer - September 18 2016 at 21:52 |
|||
--
Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 01:26 | ||
The other thing to mention here is Henry's break from Rome was political not religious and he was not part of the protestant movement sweeping northern Europe, the English reformation is a completely different beast to the protestant reformation. The anglican church was (and to some extent continues to be) far closer to catholicism than to any of the post -reformation protestant religions.
|
|||
What?
|
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 02:45 | ||
The Child Ballads do not contain any tunes, they are a collection of lyrics. There is a reason for this of course, and that is because the people who sang them couldn't read or write music. When you think about it hymn books don't contain music either because both folk songs and hymns could be, and often were, sung with different tunes and sometimes hymns were sung to folk tunes and vice versa. A case in point here is Bunyan's hymn 'To Be A Pilgrim' has been sung with several different tunes but the definitive version that we know today was adapted by Vaughan Williams from a traditional Sussex folk tune then his version was later used by Steeleye Span for their version of the Irish folk song 'Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye' which was traditionally sung to the tune of 'When Johnny comes marching home'. It's the advent of sound recording that married a particular lyric with a particular tune and gave us the definitive versions of songs that we now recognise, there could be several centuries separating tune and lyric so a medieval song may have a medieval lyric but not a medieval tune. [While not stunningly relevant to this particular discussion (though not wholly irrelevant either), sound recording has also led to the establishment of definitive versions (née: arrangements) of every piece of classical music ever composed too as even the most comprehensively annotated manuscript was (until then) open to interpretation and improvisation (aka: 'variations on a theme...').]
Edited by Dean - September 19 2016 at 02:47 |
|||
What?
|
|||
Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Online Points: 12281 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 03:50 | ||
All this inspired me to look through my collection of medieval and renaissance music to see if I could find out if anything was based on more than just the words. Of course most confirms that the actual music is mostly educated guesses based on later versions and knowledge of instruments used etc.
The exception (in my collection) is perhaps Llibre Vermell de Montserrat - Catalonian Pilgrimage songs & dances from the 14th century - which was actually written down by monks in that period of time with note sheets. It has been recorded many times (by Jordi Savall/Hespèrion XX, Ensemble Unicorn, New London Consort...) but my favorite remains Atrium Musciae's 1972 recording. Beautiful music mostly praising Virgin Mary but also contains five dances and not purely a religious mass. The monks had a mission from writing them down: "As it happens that the pilgrims, while holding night vigil in the church of the Blessed Virgin from Montserrat, sometimes desire to sing and to dance and even so during the day, in the Church Square, where only virtuous and pious songs may be sung, some suitable songs have been written down here for this need. These should be used in a respectful and moderate manner, so as not to disturb those who wish to continue their prayers and religious contemplations." - to replace the alarmingly secular songs so to speak. |
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 09:11 | ||
Excellent. And of course this confirms what I said earlier:
What we see in this example manuscript is of course the melody line to be sung together with the words, except all the notes are shown as being the same length whereas in a sung version of the song they are in fact different, and we also see some weird looking notes called "ligatures" that cover several pitch-lines that we don't have in modern notation. So, medieval notation such as this gives the singer an indication of whether the next note goes up or down, and roughly by how far, but gives no indication of the rhythm the notes are sung in. As I said, these manuscripts were a memory aid because to be able to sing that song you would have to know how it sounded first. Also, these manuscripts only show the vocal part, the rest of the musical accompaniment isn't given - the musicians would have either known the song anyway or jammed a generic accompaniment for it. |
|||
What?
|
|||
Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Online Points: 12281 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 10:39 | ||
^Thank you for the clappies! And also for additional info and... well all your informative posts. I'm a little closer to understand the kind of musical jigsaw puzzle with more missing pieces than ones intact - early music scholars and musicians has got to deal with. Bless them for trying anyway.
- I'm off to locate my album of ancient greek music. Are you telling that may not be a 100% accurate rendition as well?
|
|||
SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 12:53 | ||
Most of what has passed are examples of what's not medieval and how it's related to prog, or medieval and not related to prog. Which is not surprising. To actually answer the OP's question, I suggest this happy little ditty from Pentangle called the Lyke Wake Dirge. The song's lyrics are in an old Yorkshire dialect of Northern English and are a Christian chant to guide one's departed soul from Purgatory to Heaven. Some the lyrics are believed to date back to Germanic Pagan religions which date from the Iron Age up until the Anglo Saxon conversion to Christianity in the early Middle Ages. The lyrics, below, are translated. The early hymnal like phrasing was notated some time in the 19th century, as the original tune has long since vanished. As others have stated previously, these types of songs were memory tools used almost elusively for religious purposes. Songs that were fun, and they did exist in droves, were considered the work of idle hands and the Devil. Great times! I believe that this is as close as a true medieval song ever got to prog. At least is was performed by a prog group. Lyke Wake Dirge: This ae nighte, this ae nighte, Every nighte and alle, Fire and fleet and candle-lighte, And Christe receive thy saule. When thou from hence away art past, If ever thou gavest hosen and shoon, If hosen and shoon thou ne'er gav'st nane From Whinny-muir whence thou may'st pass, If ever thou gav'st silver and gold, But if silver and gold thou never gav'st nane, From Brig o' Dread whence thou may'st pass, Every nighte and alle,
If ever thou gav'st meat or drink, If meat or drink thou ne'er gav'st nane, This ae nighte, this ae nighte, Translation:
Edited by SteveG - September 19 2016 at 13:10 |
|||
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
|||
The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13203 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 17:08 | ||
I'm aware they are lyrics, Dean. Frances Child was a folklorist and linguist, not a musician. What I was emphasizing was the songs played by Fairport and Steeleye were, for the most part, folk tunes that were not medieval. I suppose I could've added they played the unaccompanied ballads from Child's collection to the accompaniment of popular airs writ decades or even centuries later. Yes, I could've written that.
|
|||
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 19 2016 at 23:36 | ||
Not that it's a big deal, but you said (and keep saying) "tunes".
|
|||
What?
|
|||
someone_else
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24605 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 02:07 | ||
I had to think of this song as well. The Wiki entry says that it was documented for the first time in 1686 and it says that this song has been sung in 1616 (post-medieval), but it is assumed to have been sung long before Shakespeare's funeral. Anyway, the language in which it has been written looks to me as if it can be placedsometime between Wycliffe and Shakespeare. The language is somewhat closer to German and Dutch. It is not difficult for my Dutch brain to translate Lyke-Wake to Lijkwake (Lyke/Lijk = corpse, Wake/Wake = vigil). Edited by someone_else - September 20 2016 at 02:08 |
|||
|
|||
SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 04:13 | ||
Edited by SteveG - September 20 2016 at 04:23 |
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 06:38 | ||
The [song's] language contains a few Late Middle English words but is written in Modern English, given that Middle English is a transition from the Germanic Old English language and that modern English is also called a Germanic language then similarities to modern Germanic languages are to be expected. "Lyke" meaning corpse sort-of survives today as "like" (the etymology is somewhat convoluted but essentially if one thing is like another it means "they have a similar body") - problematically, "Lyke" is Southern not Northern. Words like "fleet" for "home" and "whinney" for "thorn" are derived from Old English (for example, "fleet", is derived from the Old English "flett", where we get the modern English word "flat") and the use of "bane" for "bone" and "nane" for "none" merely shows the difference in pronunciation that vowel sounds underwent from Middle English to Modern English. Here the "a" in "bane" is pronounced as a short 'or' sound, like the "a" in 'wash' and 'want' and "nane" is therefore pronounce to rhyme with it. Unfortunately Pentangle actually mispronounce both these words in their version of the song as they've applied modern pronunciations to the old spellings - much like everyone who pronounces "Ye" using the "y" sound instead of the "th" sound, (see "thorn letter") so Ye is pronounced "Thee". Therefore "bane" should be pronounced "bone" and "nane" should be pronounced to rhyme with it (rather than using the modern pronunciation of "none" that rhymes with "nun"). Similarly "nane" and "flame" are supposed to rhyme in the original (verse 7) as should "shoon" and "on". However, vocabulary isn't as useful as grammar in determining the historical origins of a language, and the grammar in the version shown here is decidedly "Modern English" as the translation shows (in terms of grammar they are practically identical). Vocabulary can give clues to the region of origin of a particular piece as borrowed vocabulary is strongly linked to a region's history. Other than the title itself, there doesn't seem to be any Old Norse derived words in the piece to indicate an Northern English or specifically Yorkshire origin, and unless a piece is written phonetically detecting dialect (and accent) is pretty much impossible. The only real clue here is "nighte" and "lighte" - generally the superfluous "e" (as in Ye Olde Shoppe) isn't sounded so "nighte" is pronounced "night" just as "christe" is pronounced "christ", which is how Pentangle pronounces christe but not how they pronounce "nighte" and "lighte". However, in the lyric there is the rhyming couplet of "fleet" and "light" in the third line of the first verse that is supposed to match the repeated "this ae nighte" phrase in the first line. This means that night and light are pronounced "neet" and "leet" to rhyme with "fleet", which would be how Pentangle sing them except instead of "fleet" they use the 14th century French word "slaete" (slate), that they pronounce as "sleet" to make it rhyme. All well and good we may assume, albeit that Pentangle don't sing the song in a Yorkshire accent so "sleet", "neet" and "leet" sounds wrong to my (Yorkshire attuned) ears. So accent aside, at first this seems very Yorkshire except "night" and "light" don't actually rhyme in the Yorkshire dialect where "light" would be pronounced "leight" (like: "late" with a longer 'a' sound). This suggests the actual pronunciation of all four words (i.e., including "slaete") isn't quite as it first appears. Returning to "fleet" - perhaps this is the word that is being mispronounced - since the old English form is "flett" and the Modern English form is "flat" then maybe the Middle English pronunciation should be closer to "flate" (i.e. "fleight") so now the sequence of vowel shifts: flett, flate, flat appears to be far more reasonable than: flett, fleet, flat. So now the pronunciation of these words becomes "neight", "leight" and "fleight" (and even "slate") and the rhyme is preserved. It could still retain its Yorkshire origin and it makes the "leet" bit a lot less irritating (for me). Curiously, this then makes "flight of stairs", meaning a series of stairs between landings, a hell of a lot less avian (which seems an incongruous explanation to me) and far more down to earth The Medieaval Baebes version (on their debut album) doesn't rhyme night with light at all and uses "nicht" instead - which pushes it far too north (to Scotland) for my liking, but hey-ho. Edited by Dean - September 20 2016 at 06:50 |
|||
What?
|
|||
SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 07:57 | ||
^As I stated, who am I to argue with those more learned that I?
|
|||
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 09:00 | ||
^same here, if the experts say (to quote Wikipedia verbatim): 'The song is written in an old form of the Yorkshire dialect of Northern English', then I'm not going to argue with them either. Just because I don't see any dialect words there doesn't mean it isn't written in dialect and just because they say it was written in that dialect it does not actually mean that's where the song originated. Not being privy to the background data that makes them certain it is written in a Yorkshire dialect I'll happily take their word for it.
The only reason I posted anything at all in response to Robert's post was to point out that English (Old, Middle and Modern) are all Germanic languages and that a modern English word derived from Lyke=corpse is still in use today. However. That's not going to stop me having a little fun playing detective with the words, especially when I see written rhyming couplets that do not rhyme when vocalised (in any English accent).
|
|||
What?
|
|||
Icarium
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34076 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 09:10 | ||
i believe most medieval european ttradional music was either rythmic conga-like rittual music, harmonical choral works or melodic woodwind and proto-guitar like instruments.
Edited by Icarium - September 20 2016 at 09:11 |
|||
|
|||
SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 09:49 | ||
|
|||
SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 09:50 | ||
|
|||
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
|||
WeepingElf
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 18 2013 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 373 |
Posted: September 20 2016 at 10:04 | ||
Most of the music that is performed at medieval fairs, jousts, role-playing conventions and similar events is not genuine medieval music. As others have said here, most people have all sorts of misconceptions about what medieval music was like, and this includes people who organize medieval fairs, and many of the musicians who perform there.
For instance, most of the instruments played in the medieval scene are either instruments from contemporary folk traditions from various corners of Europe which may preserve some archaic features but are almost certainly not unchanged from the Middle Ages, or they are instruments that in some ways resemble medieval instruments but are actually modern inventions using modern playing techniques. There are, for instance, bagpipes which use the same fingering as a modern recorder flute, or a lute is tuned like a guitar. Also, you often hear folk instruments from different countries play together, such as an Irish bodhrán, a Swedish nyckelharpa and a set of Sardinian launeddas in the same band. And often, all these instruments are tuned in 12-note equal temperament, which of course was unknown in the Middle Ages. And if the instruments aren't truly medieval, the music played on them usually isn't, either. You must be an expert in medieval notation to read medieval notation. Most musicians aren't. They use transcriptions into modern notation which are often imprecise or outright fanciful. Sometimes only the lyrics are medieval and the notes modern, usually based on folk songs. Sometimes even the lyrics aren't medieval, at best being translations of medieval lyrics into modern languages. And so on. Authentic performance of medieval music requires a lot of research. You need a profound knowledge of music history and philology. You need to know how medieval notation systems work, and transcribe them properly. You need instruments built after genuine medieval instruments or descriptions thereof. You need to know how medieval languages are pronounced. And all that. Most bands playing at medieval fairs don't take the trouble - and most people in the audience wouldn't appreciate it if they did! |
|||
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 21 2016 at 02:01 | ||
I'd carry on with or without your permission Discussing this one song is far more interesting than discussing the thread topic and I believe goes a long way to illustrate how and why the thread topic is essentially a false one. Returning to your point about the "silver and gold" verse (as I was writing my reply to Robert as you posted yours I didn't address it in my post):
I have to say I'm not wholly convinced either. If ever thou gav'st silver and gold, Every nighte and alle, At t' Brig o' Dread thou'lt find foothold, And Christe receive thy saule. For the pagan explanation it is believed that the Brig o' Dread is the Bifrost of Nordic mythology and the sliver and gold would be an advance payment for crossing the bridge. A toll by nightly subscription is starting to sound a bit flaky already, in Greek, Roman and thus early Roman catholic christian religions payment for entering the underworld was a one-off payment based on the myth of Charon requiring payment to ferry the dead over the rivers Styx and Acheron, but this is not a Nordic or Germanic tradition. And there is another slight problem with the Bifrost explanation, and that is Heimdallr the Nordic god who guards the bridge, since he doesn't demand payment and as 'the whitest of white' gods he's pretty much unbribable - gold and silver isn't going to get you across the Rainbow Bridge to Aesgard. The song is an account of a christian soul's journey through purgatory to heaven, (much like Dante's Divine Comedy or Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress), so leaving this odd bit of alleged paganism in the middle doesn't make a whole lot of sense in that narative. But more than that it is trial of consequences - if you've done certain charitable things throughout your life (every night and all) then you can continue on the journey otherwise it's straight to hell for you. The three charitable acts are giving clothing, money and food & drink. One of the reasons Henry VIII dissolved the monasteries in 1530s was because they had become incredibly wealthy (and with that wealth came corruption). There were many ways in which they could accumulate wealth but four applicable ones here were by collection, tithe, donation and cash for instant absolution, all of which were basically people buying their way into heaven. The idea that giving money to the church would ease the path of a soul to heaven was universal in the Middle Ages and, IMO, the song merely shows that custom. |
|||
What?
|
|||
Post Reply | Page <12345 6> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |