American Politics the 2016 edition

micky wrote: blaming Obama for the Isis mess that Bush created by destablizing the middle east... and God knows how many other inane things they throw against the wall.

^^  Yeah, I blame Obama mainly for Libya and Syria, not Iraq.  It was not wrong to pull out troops from Iraq.  Whatever the Repubs may say, you can't just station troops indefinitely there.  But there was no need to intervene in Libya against Gadaffi and supporting Al Qaeda led rebels against Assad in Syria was an even bigger mistake.  Where are the refugees pouring into Europe coming from?  Syria, because it is so unstable now. Even India has seen an influx (albeit smaller) of Shias from the Middle East fleeing anti-Shia violence there.  And yet, the DC lobby has always projected Iran as enemy no.1, all because in the late 70s they dared to overthrow the Shah who was a US ally.  US backed Saddam against Iran and the rest is history, a never ending war in the Middle East. Again, though, relative calm had been achieved by the end of the nineties before Bush overreacted to the 9/11 attacks.  This neocon fantasy of installing democracy by force everywhere needs to be abandoned and sadly under Obama too, the US fell prey to the same fantasy as they enthusiastically cheered the Arab spring. 

Trump's efforts in Florida are in serious and likely irreversible jeopardy due to the actions and low approval ratings of Governor Rick Scott - most important is the fact that a petty dispute between Scott and the rest of the Florida GOP led to the governor pulling his funds from the state party's war chest, leaving it emaciated and unable to fund vital outreach efforts.

Edited by LearsFool - September 15 2016 at 15:02

JJLehto wrote: So, here's a sad little article.  Here in the US, wealthiest country on Earth, in some poor communities teens sell their bodies for $ to eat. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/12/teens-america-hunger-food-poverty It's not often this direct, many times it's "transactional dating" such as girls dating older men as way to help get by. Though many times it is that direct:  "In seven of the 10 communities, teenagers told stories of girls exchanging sexual favours with strangers or stripping for money in abandoned houses, at flea markets and on the street." "Another girl in Chicago told researchers of an 11-year-old girl who dropped out of sixth grade to work in the sex trade, while boys in Los Angeles described how middle school girls put up flyers in public places to advertise their services."  Some other means of eating more regularly include going to friends houses hoping maybe they'll feed you, stealing it, selling drugs and saving school lunches till night so at least they won't go to bed hungry, or save it for the weekend. Sometimes they will not eat, so their younger siblings can.  This is actually happening in the US, and some people (and their defenders) are outraged they need to pay 20% tax on a $10 million income. Or worse, poverty is so often waved off as "an unfortunate result of the markets" and we can only throw a few scraps towards it...any more gov involvement than that and we risk hurting our efficiency! Or maybe these kids are just lazy! They could get a, non existent min wage, job or go to college (because it's just that easy!) Stories like this need to be given to every politician and American, put some humanity to all the talk of numbers, markets, dollars and cents.

@Dean

^^^ Nailed it. At a certain stage, even guys like project managers - who ostensibly have a lot of soft skill input in their job and are therefore immune to automation - will become redundant.  Not necessarily because a robot will do their job too but because if all their juniors are bots, you don't need so many managers.  The old joke about the GM manager who boasted that the new robots won't go on strike only to be told they won't buy cars either comes to mind. This will eventually threaten the capitalists themselves because what do they sell and to whom.  For whose consumption are all these goods intended anyway? Upending the status quo doesn't quite do justice to the kind of change that may be upon us in the future (and already is happening at a smaller level).

rogerthat wrote: micky wrote: blaming Obama for the Isis mess that Bush created by destablizing the middle east... and God knows how many other inane things they throw against the wall. But Obama has made mistakes of his own too in the middle east and rather large ones.

ahhh .. missed this earlier.

that isn't the point ...nor what Trump is throwing out there for the illiterate American voters. Trump blew it there. He was right in the primaries to shoot down Bush extra light. His brother didn't protect us. His administration had plenty of warning.. knew the threat of Al Queda... and dropped the ball.  Hillaries Emails? Where the hell was the indignation about that with our friends in Congress.. much less the lies and incompetence that followed. However whatever credibility he gained.. and yes.. he even had it with me for calling a spade a spade.. he lost by then blaming Obama for all that was not his doing and making a bed with all the conspiracy crazies.. Things we wasn't even a national elected figure at the time for! hahaha.

As far as Obama's mistakes? He was put into the position by the previous administration.  Listen.. no one has been more disappointed in Obama than I have but lets get real here. Perhaps it was unrealistic of me, and others, to see him as him as a potential great President. He had the deck stacked against him by what he inherited. Not even Lincoln could have both saved the econony and dealt with the international mess Obama was left.

He was left a giant sh*t sandwich to deal with, has he made mistakes. Damn right. The only reason he won't be considered a truly great President is he couldn't pull off a hoodini act internationally. I don't think anyone could have inherited that and not made mistakes. This is uncharted territory we are in, so I cut him some slack. One shouldn't expect perfection but one should competence. The lack of by the Bush administration is what caused this.  He will though be seen by history I believe as a very good one for dealing with the economic wreckage left to him. 

Dean wrote: micky wrote: Dean wrote: I've spent the past nine years reading the political comments on the PA learning a lot about how we view things from a political perspective, especially from y'all Americans who are more vocal than anyone else on these subjects, (hence your belief that you need a political thread all of your own to play with ), and frankly you're no different from the rest of us. In that time I've seen every argument presented from every angle and every perspective - every ideology and every political philosophy has been discussed to death here and not one of them has proven to have all the answers. Up until recently I would have argued that you cannot all be right and it's very possible that you all are wrong. However recent events (i.e. the US Presidential Elections) have led me to observe that there is another way of looking at it, and that is - in a very narrow microcosm you are all right. This is how, and why, you all strongly believe that your views, ideologies and political perspectives are the solution to all the world's ills because in an ideal static world you would be. Unfortunately this isn't an idea static world, it's an imperfect dynamic world. we do tend to be a bit more vocal about it I suppose Dean. We do have a good excuse I suppose.  We are in the midst of a war here. A culture war that has slowly spilled from the halls of Congress down to the streets. Whereas once we could agree to disagree, the polarization in this country and the resulting hate, anger and division has in large part killed that. I'm as guilty of being part of that as any I suppose. Both sides now see each other as nothing less than the destroyer of what they happen to see this country standing for.  One side a inclusive diverse nation of personal freedoms who are just a cog in the world wide village. The other a white semi-theocratic regime superior  by our economic, political, and miltary power to you yokels across the pond. The real problem is not just demonizing each other on social media or the internet. The more radiical fringes on each side now make their points with violence and in America.. that means guns man. Some realize the 2nd American Civil War we are in the midst of... some don't.Yet unlike the 1st.. with no foreeeable 'end'.  Then again... the 2nd is little more than a continuation of the 1st. So did it really ever get resolved. Not so sure I agree with the diverse angles and perspectives on this site. The site leans heavily left wing and if you don't count a few Liberatarians the site has lacked a right wing perspective.  I'd welcome it myself, if only to try to get them to explain how they can support racism, bigotry, and making this country into a goddmaned evangelical state hah!   There are republican voters here but they chose not to get involved for fear that we'd descend upon them like a pack of rabid dogs, as well we might.  The right wing perspective all depends on where you actually stand on the left-right political spectrum. Everyone is more right-wing than Stein such that from a true centrist position she is the only left-wing candidate on the ballot. In that respect you'd be hard pressed to slide a Rizla between Clinton and Trump so racism and bigotry could be the only thing that does differentiate them. America as never experienced proper left-wing politics and it is unlikely that it ever will. Obviously Johnson and the Librarians are a millitad more right-leaning but again, not enough for anyone to worry about the safety of the Polish homeland - their claim to fame is in being less authoritarian not more right-wing. But even then that's all relative and in reality Johnson's appeal in that respect is he's a moderate and very much a case of AnCap, he may call himself a Libatarian but he ain't no anti-authoritarian anarchist. [I also note that his supporters have inferred him to be more liberal than the Liberals, if that is ever a thing a librarian can practically be.] Justifying bigotry is piss-easy when you don't see what you are defending as being bigotry and when you approach it in baby-steps, and that thinking starts with "I'm not a racist but...". But at least now you are asking the same question I have been persistently asking

oh I know they are out there. They are probably the wise ones Dean. Staying out of the shark tank. It would be blood and chum in the water. One reason I removed myself from Facebook.

’know, the thing about Micky, he’s got lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll’s eyes. When he comes after ya, he doesn’t seem to be livin’ until he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white, and then – aww, then you hear that terrible high-pitch screamin’, the forum turns red, and in spite of all the poundin’ and the hollerin’, the rest of Mick's crew all come in and rip ya to pieces

  take my lack of addressing them for agreeing at least to the point of not bothering to get into discussing fine points of disagreement. This isn't the thread for that.  However take my point in return in relation to the topic at hand. This election.

 It isn't like Obama took a stabiized region and turned it into a f**king disaster.  Theirin in my point in relation to the thread. This election. Those issues are so murky ... it would take a educated electorate to understand the mistakes.  Thus knowing their chickens... and their ignorance.. the GOP goes after things the voter can understand. Who cares if they are not true.. or simply fantasy.

what is Aleppo? Indeeed.. there is 80% of my fellow electorate. So what to do in that case... blame Obama for the larger problem. The rise of radical Islam that Bush and his Iraqi adventure launched not just upon us but the world. A generation of war.. with no way to win. Thus myself... and likely many Americans give Obama a pass on mistakes.  He inherited an even worse situation there than he did with our economy. The economy we could fix ourselves. There was no putting the genie in teh bottle when it came to destablizing the middle east and giving rise to radical islam on a wide scale.

My real problems with Obama are more with Russia and Putin.. that he doesn't have Bush to cover for his mistakes. But that is a different topic....and far more dangerous than radical Islam.

@ micky I agree that the issues are murkier than the obvious blunders of Rumsfeld & Co but that does not excuse educated people, especially in the media, proclaiming to disseminate information, going soft on them. And indeed, the haze of misplaced complacency created by this attitude is why the rise of ISIS caught the world unawares.  Nobody put the pieces together until it was too late.