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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: June 23 2016 at 19:28 |
 TeleStrat wrote:
I will reply to a few of your comments Dean but I will not get into another long 'back and forth' like we did with space travel. |
You had me at a disadvantage there because I couldn't recall that conversation. Now I've found it and read all three of your "space travel" posts that I replied too, I seriously wouldn't call it long or a 'back and forth'.
TeleStrat wrote:
My comment about not being concerned about other countries was about people comparing situations in other countries to situations in my country. It had nothing to do with a lack of concern about the rest of the world. I did a search for the population of England and mistakenly posted the population of the UK. I will drop and give you twenty push-ups and we will call it even. Comparing London to Los Angeles or England to the US and all of the related statistics is really an 'apples to oranges' kind of thing. |
Well yes it is and there is nothing wrong with that... apples and oranges are both fruit, they both grow on trees, they both can be grown in orchards, both can be squeezed to produce juice drinks, they both have zero fat, both are a source of fibre, they both contain vitamin 'C', you can eat both of them, both are good for you, both are roundish, they are roughly the same size, they are roughly the same weight, they both float in water, both can be used to demonstrate the law of gravity, they both ripen, they both rot, both have a peel, both have a stalk end (pedicel) and an end that is the remnant of a blossom flower's calyx, both have seeds in them that will grow into trees, both trees are deciduous, both fruits can be picked and both can be used to make an accompaniment to meat. Comparing 'apples to oranges' is never a dumb thing, even when you only look at what makes them different (for example an orange is a berry whereas an apple is an accessory fruit).
But I'm just posting crap for the sake of it because I like showing off how smart I am and you're not interested in discussing anything at length. Sure doing something about how guns are sold by so-called private sellers at gun shows would be doing something positive but it's a spit in the ocean that wouldn't be necessary if the definition of private seller hadn't been changed from "a person who sells less than four guns a year" to "anyone who doesn't rely on gun sales for their livelihood". This is what happens when people who whinge that gun laws are too restrictive get their way.
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: June 23 2016 at 20:04 |
*frinspar* wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
TeleStrat wrote:
It's not like no one knows that guns are sold and traded at gun shows without any paperwork at all. I've heard many politicians and news commentators talking about it and it baffles me that this wasn't stopped long ago.I've only been to one gun show and it was at the Pomona Fair Grounds. Once I saw how big it was I understood why they always have them at fair grounds. There were many booths with dealers and from gun shops and they required all paperwork and you didn't get the gun that day. But many of the smaller booths did not require paperwork and didn't even ask to see an ID. So, like I said, I don't understand this at all. |
This seems just beyond bizarre to me (not to mention risky in the extreme), but I stopped trying to understand this country a long time ago. |
We're young, dumb and full of guns. ;)
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Oh, now I get it. thanks.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 23 2016 at 20:48 |
Dean wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Dean wrote:
I've not looked into road safety and have no inclination to do so, therefore I don't know why you are three times more likely to die on American roads than British ones, or why an American owned car is two and a half times more likely to kill someone, or why you're twice as likely to be killed per mile driven - so as I said, no matter how you count it, the USA is lagging behind by an appreciable amount. As the USA seems to have all the requisite laws and regulations perhaps the problem is abiding by them and/or enforcing them. |
I'm pretty sure it's a combination of us driving a lot more and driving a lot more in urban areas.
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As I say, I've not looked into it. The number of deaths per mile driven is twice as high in the USA but that doesn't take into account length of journey time so you may be right if your average journey time is longer, tiredness kills (or so our traffic signs like to tell us). In my admittedly limited experience of driving in US cities (LA, SF and Austin) they don't appear to be any more or less dangerous than over here, in fact I found it easier and a lot less stressful. An American colleague came over from SF last week and he returned the hire car early because he couldn't cope with driving around Norwich, which is about as tame as it gets around here. |
Yeah I dunno. Can't say I have any personal experience driving in foreign countries. I was a bit unclear earlier. When I said that "I'm pretty sure" what I really meant is that I read a research article by two economists that concluded that. I have no idea how that fits in to landscape of the field, but I remember being okay enough about it to repeat it.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: June 23 2016 at 20:50 |
A Person wrote:
That is strange, we have roundabouts here.
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Really? I've never seen one and I've driven all over the Eastern half of the country. I know we have circles but I've never seen a bona fide roundabout.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: June 23 2016 at 22:15 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
A Person wrote:
That is strange, we have roundabouts here.
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Really? I've never seen one and I've driven all over the Eastern half of the country. I know we have circles but I've never seen a bona fide roundabout.
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I have seen a couple of them here in Michigan.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: June 24 2016 at 02:24 |
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What?
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: June 24 2016 at 04:42 |
rushfan4 wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
The vast majority of the population wants background checks and a ban on assault weapons. Since that is what the majority of the country wants, why on earth are is the government not implementing it? |
Be careful. This is a slippery slope comment. And the same comment that men used to say women shouldn't vote; whites used to say that blacks should ride on the back of the bus; and heterosexuals say that homosexuals shouldn't be married.
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Well said, and not that it means we should then say "Woo! Rocket Launchers for everyone!" but the debate should be about facts and honest discussion (well not like we get that anyway). It IS a bit dangerous to use that type of argument because it can always cut both ways, and as Scott says times and people change.
There is some validity to it though, clearly a majority of Americans do, and always have, support better gun laws. The debate needs to happen.
As for roundabouts...there were a few sprinkled around NJ, usually was a rare sight. I noticed more here in Tallahassee, FL for whatever reason. The area we live in actually has quite a few. Supposedly they are safer and more efficient than the 4 way stop/light thing and just like guns....I'm willing to look at the data over having an opinion.
Moderately tougher gun laws, strongly better economic policies and more roundabouts! Vote JJ 2024
Edited by JJLehto - June 24 2016 at 04:46
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67407
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Posted: June 24 2016 at 04:48 |
JJLehto wrote:
Moderately tougher gun laws, strongly better economic policies and more roundabouts!Vote JJ 2024
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These all seem like evil things. 
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17845
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Posted: June 24 2016 at 18:30 |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15242
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Posted: June 25 2016 at 09:09 |
I own guns to protect myself from the government. I know they have nuclear weapons, microwave immobilizers, technology in space that can take out a whole town, the entire military at their disposal and the ability to simply just bullldoze my house while i'm sleeping but hey, it's my constitutional right and if someone such as a kid finds them and use them for naughty endeavors leaving scores of injured and dead, well at least i excercised my consititional rights because my paranoia and illogical conclusions make me feel better
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: June 25 2016 at 10:09 |
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I own guns to protect myself from the government. I know they have nuclear weapons, microwave immobilizers, technology in space that can take out a whole town, the entire military at their disposal and the ability to simply just bullldoze my house while i'm sleeping but hey, it's my constitutional right and if someone such as a kid finds them and use them for naughty endeavors leaving scores of injured and dead, well at least i excercised my consititional rights because my paranoia and illogical conclusions make me feel better |
fair enough.
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: June 25 2016 at 13:27 |
*frinspar* wrote:
Like darksinger, I don't see why anyone should be made to feel they have to justify their ownership. But at the same time, I don't really give damn about the 2nd amendment. If we did away with it, I would be okay.
While we live in a decent area, several years ago there were a fair amount of home invasions and robberies close enough to our home that we finally decided to get a couple of guns.
We bought a 9mm with hollow points for the protection part, and a .22 for the cheap practice ammo.
I figure it's more about peace of mind, and probably, hopefully, will never be necessary to use.
We'd been talking about it for a few years off and on, and seriously researched and educated ourselves on proper handling long before buying. She can handle the 9mm, and that was important to find something potentially effective enough to be protection, but not difficult to manipulate. We considered a shotgun for the unarguable stopping power, but she had difficulty handling them.
Also gives me comfort when I'm away that she has something to protect herself with. She keeps the case near her at those times.
And, since we bought them, we both have come to enjoy doing a little target practice, as well as the ritual processes of cleaning and maintaining them.
I live in Arizona, and the gun laws here and requirements to purchase, for all practical purposes don't seem to exist. You can go and buy a gun an hour if you want, plop it on your hip and go grocery shopping. You can buy thousands of rounds of ammo, and all you're likely to get are approving nods and maybe even some applause.
But I've gotta say, for all the potential for people to walk around like they're cowboys, I've only seen 2 people open carry in the 17 years I've been living here.
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I would not be okay, simply because the powers that be have shown interest in expanding the removal of other rights as well. we already lost part of the 5th amendment in terms that the taking of property via eminent domain and the definitions of what are "good reasons" for it do not exclude the government taking your real estate and giving it to another private entity (kelo v new haven). the reason the "gun bills" did not pass was over one wanting due process for people on terror watchlists and the other not allowing due process. due process is part of our constitutional rights. there are also constant "interpretations" and attacks on free speech, freedom of religion and even "free speech zones" in colleges and "constitution free" regions of the USA. so, I view the repealing of the second amendment as a domino effect-you give up one, where does it stop after?
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*frinspar*
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2008
Location: Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 463
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Posted: June 25 2016 at 14:01 |
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The 4th only exists on paper anymore. The dominoes are already tipped. And I consider that amendment more important than having guns.
I also don't see realistic, reasonable support behind the arguments for the people to keep guns in order to keep government in check. We will be smears in the pavement should it ever come to something so desperate.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13054
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Posted: June 25 2016 at 14:38 |
*frinspar* wrote:
The 4th only exists on paper anymore. The dominoes are already tipped. And I consider that amendment more important than having guns.
I also don't see realistic, reasonable support behind the arguments for the people to keep guns in order to keep government in check. We will be smears in the pavement should it ever come to something so desperate.
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There needs to be an amendment that states: No law shall impinge on the people's right to have paranoid delusions, religious extremist fantasies or outrageous conspiracy theories, even if said delusions, fantasies and conspiracy theories conflict with rational people trying to live ordinary lives. Whereof, we hold these rights to be self-evident, to be crazy is a guaranteed freedom, but only if you are a) white, b) fundamentalist Christian, c) a gun-owner, d) a cattle-rancher wanting to exploit federal land without taxation, or e) a Republican congressman wishing to eliminate voters' rights, abortion rights, women's rights, minority rights, migrant rights, LGBTQ rights, public school funding, gun control of any kind, and eliminate due process for everyone but the aforementioned entitled, yet who still professes to be a good Christian every Sunday at church. Amen. ***
*** No actual delusionally-paranoid, religiously-extreme conspiracy theorists were harmed in the making of this post.  <-- Look, I've even added an emoticon to indicate I was joking.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: Durham, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 1091
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Posted: June 26 2016 at 17:00 |
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so, if you think rights are being impinged upon, then you are paranoid and bigoted?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: June 26 2016 at 17:17 |
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To do something with all the bullets I have. Duh.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: June 26 2016 at 18:28 |
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http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2016/jan/26/virginia-center-public-safety/gun-control-group-says-more-americans-have-died-fi/
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic
Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15242
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Posted: June 26 2016 at 19:36 |
emigre80 wrote:
siLLy puPPy wrote:
I own guns to protect myself from the government. I know they have nuclear weapons, microwave immobilizers, technology in space that can take out a whole town, the entire military at their disposal and the ability to simply just bullldoze my house while i'm sleeping but hey, it's my constitutional right and if someone such as a kid finds them and use them for naughty endeavors leaving scores of injured and dead, well at least i excercised my consititional rights because my paranoia and illogical conclusions make me feel better |
fair enough. |
Actually i really own guns to kill anybody who doesn't agree with me. I have a small penis and that makes me feel insecure, so i have to make sure my male ego is fed and that means i have to take appropriate measures and kill anybody who doesn't see things my way. I understand that testosterone has an effect on my thinking by i don't give a flying frack and will kill you any wayz if you don't agree with me. So there
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13054
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Posted: June 26 2016 at 20:11 |
darksinger wrote:
so, if you think rights are being impinged upon, then you are paranoid and bigoted? |
What rights do you feel are being impinged, precisely?
You mentioned in you last post "attacks...on freedom of religion" - which religion is being attacked? I'm guessing it's not Muslims you are referring to, or Jews, but I could be wrong (you're not at all specific). Are you referring to the hillbilly clerk in Kentucky refusing to do her job (a salary paid by taxpayers) because other taxpayers wanted to be married legally under the laws, but she denies their right because she doesn't agree with them on religious grounds (although how someone who has been divorced more often than some people have shoes is rather questionable morally)?
Is it perhaps because actual science is taught in the classroom and you want the fairy tale about some deity plopping cows down already chewing cud in pastures on the 5th day taught to children whose parents want nothing to do with that nonsense? Or is this the gay cake thing? It is, isn't it? Come on, admit it. What does God have against cake, exactly? Does he judge pastry like on Cake Wars? Heck, when a wedding ran out of wine, Jesus made gallons more, and the good stuff, so you know he liked a good party.
You also mentioned "attack on freedom of speech". I didn't know you supported Black Lives Matter! I'm impressed at your liberality, because I can't stand them, personally. But I guess we have to allow them to spew racist nonsense just like Limbaugh, or Trump attacking judges of Mexican descent or any other birther twaddle.
But hey, I learned something from your post. You mentioned "constitution free" regions of the U.S., which I never heard of. So I looked it up. A Constitution Free (a misnomer, truthfully) zone runs around the entire length of the U.S. It is a 100-mile strip of land touching every U.S. land and coastal border that an outdated federal regulation defines as the 'border zone'. It was established in 1953 by the Justice Department under President Dwight D. Eisenhower (Oh, those damn democrats! Wait, what the -- Eisenhower was a republican!).
According to the ACLU:
Although this zone is not literally "Constitution free"—constitutional protections do still apply—the Border Patrol frequently ignores those protections and runs roughshod over individuals' civil liberties.
So I must apologize to you. I didn't know you wanted to protect illegal immigrants from improper search and seizure because the border patrol is running roughshod over them.
Edited by The Dark Elf - June 26 2016 at 20:13
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Why do you own a gun?
