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The T View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 14:44
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I guess from an American perspective, the ones with sensitivity and understanding of these issues are on the left, and since Mr New Member thinks even TRUMP is left wing, is a normal conclusion for him that identity politics are a "hallmark of socialism", because of course a hallmark of "conservatism" or whatever is supposedly right for him is manliness, machoismo, family, tradition, property, etc. 

I don't get your fixation on me being a new member. So what? Aren't new people allowed to participate in discussions? That was like your third post ever so you ARE a new member. No other implications from that. You can of course participate in anything you want. 

Trump is left wing, he has traditionally supported abortion, socialized medicine, big government, and is anti-free trade. Yes, he talks like a conservative when it comes to immigration, but that's about it. I'm rolling my eyes at the idea of Trump, business tycoon, capitalist par excellence, as "left wing". Also, abortion is NOT a left wing issue (though in the US freedom of Choice is). Also, on the other hand, conservatives of the old school would not agree with your idea about immigration and conservatism. 

Also, machismo is a very phony and self-conscious behaviour. I believe it's only used by people with low self-esteem. Here we can agree. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 14:51
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Identity politics is just marxism with a new coat of paint. It takes class warfare and transposes it to race warfare, gender warfare, etc.

huh
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 15:01
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Identity politics is just marxism with a new coat of paint. It takes class warfare and transposes it to race warfare, gender warfare, etc.

huh
There is some type of logic at play here, but you really need to try your best to understand it. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 16:53
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Identity politics is just marxism with a new coat of paint. It takes class warfare and transposes it to race warfare, gender warfare, etc.

huh
There is some type of logic at play here, but you really need to try your best to understand it. Tongue

This isn't difficult to understand - proponents of identity politics use the concepts of class warfare and apply them to race, gender, and sexuality. Same ideas, different context.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 16:55
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Identity politics is just marxism with a new coat of paint. It takes class warfare and transposes it to race warfare, gender warfare, etc.

huh
There is some type of logic at play here, but you really need to try your best to understand it. Tongue

This isn't difficult to understand - proponents of identity politics use the concepts of class warfare and apply them to race, gender, and sexuality. Same ideas, different context.
If you read a few posts above, I actually understood you. I'm not sure if that speaks well about me or not though... TongueLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 17:04
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Identity politics is just marxism with a new coat of paint. It takes class warfare and transposes it to race warfare, gender warfare, etc.

huh
There is some type of logic at play here, but you really need to try your best to understand it. Tongue

This isn't difficult to understand - proponents of identity politics use the concepts of class warfare and apply them to race, gender, and sexuality. Same ideas, different context.

Ideas of class and oppressors and the oppressed exist outside of Marxism, though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 17:10
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I don't get your fixation on me being a new member. So what? Aren't new people allowed to participate in discussions? That was like your third post ever so you ARE a new member. No other implications from that. You can of course participate in anything you want. 

Don't be disingenuous - saying things like "Mr New Member" are meant to be patronizing, as if I have no purpose being here.

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I'm rolling my eyes at the idea of Trump, business tycoon, capitalist par excellence, as "left wing". Also, abortion is NOT a left wing issue (though in the US freedom of Choice is). Also, on the other hand, conservatives of the old school would not agree with your idea about immigration and conservatism. 

In case someone thinks I'm a Trump fan, I might have to state out the outset that I don't like Trump at all - I think he would make a horrible President and he should probably be sent to some far-away island where he can't inflict himself on anyone again. Also, I think he's far from a capitalist par excellence, given how many bankruptcies and business failures he's stumbled through.

Anyways to get to your point about Trump being left-wing, yes, he's rich but he nevertheless supports left-leaning values and has done so all his life. He even believes in higher taxes for the ultra-rich. Yes, even though he's ultra-rich himself and has used tax loopholes in the past. He's not very consistent, and he's even less honest, but where his positions can be pinpointed they're more left than right of centre.

What immigration and conservatism ideas would old-school conservatives disagree with? I didn't state my own position on immigration, only that Trump's stance on immigration (that can be discerned) is his only value that doesn't seem obviously left-leaning.


Edited by Seventh Arrow - May 27 2016 at 17:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 17:14
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

If you read a few posts above, I actually understood you. I'm not sure if that speaks well about me or not though... TongueLOL

Well, politics (and prog) make for strange bedfellows sometimes!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 17:18
^ Indeed.   You have intelligence and conviction so just keep going and eventually you'll earn respect.  Assuming you aren't chewed up and spit out by the insatiable maw that is ProgArchives.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 17:19
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


Ideas of class and oppressors and the oppressed exist outside of Marxism, though.

Definitely, but the expression of webs of oppression, coupled with revolutionary language about the dictatorship of the proletariat is, if not distinctly marx-ian, then at least highly popularized by it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 17:23
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


Ideas of class and oppressors and the oppressed exist outside of Marxism, though.

Definitely, but the expression of webs of oppression, coupled with revolutionary language about the dictatorship of the proletariat is, if not distinctly marx-ian, then at least highly popularized by it.

There are lots of leftists who are reject Marxist ideology who also are strong proponents of things like feminism. Emma Goldman was an anarchist and was very influential as a feminist (although she did  not identify with the feminsit movement of the time)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 18:11
Check out Trump's November strategy.

My response: LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 18:17
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:


To say that welfare, social security, etc., are hallmarks of modern society instead of hallmarks of socialism ignores cause in favour of effect. These things didn't come about as a result of capitalism, but as a result of socialist ideology. You can only call them centrist if you're not aware of the overall standard of comparison. In other words, the democrats are only centrist if you compare them with other shades of left, such as communism. But if viewed through the full spectrum of left to right, then they're very much on the left side of the fence.
 
On the contrary, a number of states have adopted forms of social welfare without ever having been socialist entities. In fact, a Marxist would argue that capitalist societies utilize social welfare programs as a way of buying off the underclass so that they never revolt.
 
BTW, I am 57 years old and a historian. So please don't jump to the conclusion that I am not aware of the overall standard of comparison. American democrats are centrist compared not only to communists, but also to the left-wing/labor/socialist etc. parties in much of the rest of the world.  They may be on the "left side of the fence" but not by much, which makes them more centrist than left.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 18:21
Originally posted by LearsFool LearsFool wrote:

Check out Trump's November strategy.
 
My response: LOL
 
But it turns out we have nothing to worry about, according to Trump's campaign chairman and chief strategist, Paul Manafort:
 
“He needs an experienced person to do the part of the job he doesn’t want to do. He seems himself more as the chairman of the board, than even the CEO, let alone the COO.” [...]
 
Looks like Trump is planning to outsource the Presidency. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 18:35
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:


To say that welfare, social security, etc., are hallmarks of modern society instead of hallmarks of socialism ignores cause in favour of effect. These things didn't come about as a result of capitalism, but as a result of socialist ideology. You can only call them centrist if you're not aware of the overall standard of comparison. In other words, the democrats are only centrist if you compare them with other shades of left, such as communism. But if viewed through the full spectrum of left to right, then they're very much on the left side of the fence.
 
On the contrary, a number of states have adopted forms of social welfare without ever having been socialist entities. In fact, a Marxist would argue that capitalist societies utilize social welfare programs as a way of buying off the underclass so that they never revolt.

That is true, some do say that. Others support them though, because it helps and protects the working class in some small way for the present. Some think they can use social welfare reforms to help work towards a socialist society, but that is a different topic I think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 18:37
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by LearsFool LearsFool wrote:

Check out Trump's November strategy.
 
My response: LOL
 
But it turns out we have nothing to worry about, according to Trump's campaign chairman and chief strategist, Paul Manafort:
 
“He needs an experienced person to do the part of the job he doesn’t want to do. He seems himself more as the chairman of the board, than even the CEO, let alone the COO.” [...]
 
Looks like Trump is planning to outsource the Presidency. 

Yeah that's my main reason I don't like the idea of a Trump presidency. We are pretty much at the mercy of any advisor/cabinet member he has appointed. I don't fear Trump himself as much.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 19:08
Originally posted by Seventh Arrow Seventh Arrow wrote:

Don't be disingenuous - saying things like "Mr New Member" are meant to be patronizing, as if I have no purpose being here.
I recognize at least some not-so-subconscious part of me thought that why. Knee-jerk reaction. I apologize.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2016 at 19:22
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

Originally posted by LearsFool LearsFool wrote:

Check out Trump's November strategy.
 
My response: LOL
 
But it turns out we have nothing to worry about, according to Trump's campaign chairman and chief strategist, Paul Manafort:
 
“He needs an experienced person to do the part of the job he doesn’t want to do. He seems himself more as the chairman of the board, than even the CEO, let alone the COO.” [...]
 
Looks like Trump is planning to outsource the Presidency. 

I have heard Trump is considering changing the status of his hair to that of a dependency, that way he can eventually grant it admission into the Union and be assured of another red state. Wink



Edited by The Dark Elf - May 27 2016 at 19:23
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 09:32
Originally posted by emigre80 emigre80 wrote:

On the contrary, a number of states have adopted forms of social welfare without ever having been socialist entities. In fact, a Marxist would argue that capitalist societies utilize social welfare programs as a way of buying off the underclass so that they never revolt.
 
BTW, I am 57 years old and a historian. So please don't jump to the conclusion that I am not aware of the overall standard of comparison. American democrats are centrist compared not only to communists, but also to the left-wing/labor/socialist etc. parties in much of the rest of the world.  They may be on the "left side of the fence" but not by much, which makes them more centrist than left.

In the "rest of the world," yes, but this is the American politics thread, let's not forget. There may be shades of conservatism that allow for social programs, but traditional l'aissez-faire capitalism does not. LFC rejects any gov't intervention that goes beyond law enforcement/military.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2016 at 09:33
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

I recognize at least some not-so-subconscious part of me thought that why. Knee-jerk reaction. I apologize.

No problem, thank you for being a true gentleman.
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