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Logan 
Forum & Site Admin Group 
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35795 |
 Posted: April 18 2016 at 19:52 |
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The forums (board) can act as a repository for whatever subjectively moves any of us (pretty much), we can share our opinions on any music etc. on the board, but the database does not serve the same purpose. I can talk about any music I like in the appropriate forums, but I can't add any band or artist that I want to. We have teams to decide whether they think that band should be included in a category.
EDIT: I have been ninja'd. Edited by Logan - April 18 2016 at 19:52 |
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 07 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2617 |
Posted: April 18 2016 at 20:36 |
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Thank you for pointing out that distinction. I have not used your Database, only Discussion, so you cleared up why the debate is heated about membership in the club. You have given me clear information and without an air of entitlement or authority. And thank you for pointing out Mister Dean's role in this. Perhaps I was giving too much respect. You know, "Once a General, always a General." That may explain the tone and sometimes pathological responses. I'll try and not be hypocritical and criticize the sarcasm. I am guilty of its use. I would recommend, however. that good manners not be misinterpreted as weakness. Thank you again.
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2617 |
Posted: April 18 2016 at 20:37 |
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And likewise, thank you Logan for that explanation.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65250 |
Posted: April 18 2016 at 20:39 |
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In my case it would be "Once an assh*le, always an assh*le".
Respect? There are a handful of people here who deserve what I think of as true respect. Dean is one, but you'd have no way of knowing that which is what makes human communication so tricky. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 01:45 |
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No insult intended, just an observation - You present the same opinion as Pedro in the same vocabulary and do it in a not dissimilar condescending and patronising tone, the only slight difference is the quality of sarcasm involved. The 'Cliff notes' quip is a perfect example of that.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 01:46 |
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I'm always an arsehole.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 03:56 |
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Okay, now we've gotten past the misunderstanding that a] this thread is talking about formal addition of XTC to the PA Archive (database) and not informal discussion of XTC in the PA Forum (board); b] you can discuss whatever you like in the Forum as long as it's in the appropriate sub-forum (lounge); c] I'm not an Admin any more (that's what Retired means); and d] I was being no less friendly to you personally than your posts in this thread were to the "PA" members in general ("re-Tardis"... how dumb do you think we are?); then there is no subtext here and my response was not contradictory. What you possibly don't know is: a] I have a propensity to be verbose when responding to the opinion of others; b] If I am terse then I am purposely trying to avoid going off on a pointless diatribe; c] I have tendency to respond in kind; d] when I am being offensive I pull my punches; e] My sense of humour is drier than the Atacama Desert on a particularly warm day; f] I like sarcasm as much, if not more, than the next man; g] I defend the PA Archive (database) and the Collaborators who maintain it at the slightest provocation; h] I am less defensive about what happens in the PA Forum (board) as long as people who post there are respectful of [g]; i] I regard respect as something that is an immutable right, not something to be earnt, (see [c]); j] I expect everyone to be treated as equals, regardless of their age, rank or the "badge" they wear; k] I believe that people who have "lost the respect of others" should still be treated with respect (see [d]); l] I never demand or expect that people of higher "rank" should be held to a higher standard than everyone else; m] I know the difference between subjectivity and objectivity; n] I know a fallacious argument when I see one; o] I am a pedant when I need to be; p] I am an opinionated arsehole; q] I never assume that I know more than others; r] I never presume to be better than anyone else; s] I am long passed redemption; t] I am not that interested in classifying music to the nth degree; u] I try not to look at things from a single perspective but prefer the wider view; v] However, I do not believe that classifying music after the event can affect the creativity of the artiste; w] As a consequence I see the complaint against "pigeon-holing" as a whine about perceived commercialism, not as a restrictive on creativity; x] I do not regard Progressive Rock as a general catch-all umbrella term for all music that is progressive; y] I do not hold 'progressive' as a qualitative term; and z) I really like XTC and the Dukes of the Stratosphere.  What you appeared to have done here was criticised the exhibits in the British Museum after a 5-minute peruse of its Gift Shop.  Exhibit #454921 - "Tin Mug" c. 21st Century, Enamelware, origin unknown, probably China. ...and now I know that the mistake was yours and yours alone then I can forgive the content of your posts and now I have set-out my 26-point agenda I can even see past the manner in which they were conveyed so I apologise for the terseness in my subsequent response.  Edited by Dean - April 19 2016 at 04:32 |
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2617 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 05:59 |
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 So that answer to "how dumb do you think we are?" might better be applied in the singular, personal possessive.
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2617 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 06:35 |
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You haven't grasped that the reverse might be the case? You can criticize me however much it pleases you, but bury the Pedro comparisons. Have you forgotten that the major reason for joining PA was to dispel the 'misinformation' that was written here by my former friend and drama class member. Initially, if you can recall, I was rather perversely pleased that many people here liked to call Pedro out on his "opinions in the abstract." This confirmed my conflicting opinions. Now before Pedro goes into seizure reading this, let me say he was a good friend in the early '70s and a (discreetly saying) major irritant by that decade's end. If I wrote a thesis like you do Dean, point by point contradicting what's been written here, my dance card would be full till June. I didn't want to spend the time in wasted confrontation mode. But if I am forced to defend my work in experimental radio from 1968 (my first radio gig) through the creation of SPACE PIRATE RADIO in 1973, actively till 2003, I will. I'm an old man and forgiveness is in my soul. Please don't make me reconsider my position.  I have been hopefully positive in contributing my experiences in the trenches of this marvelous art form. It has been marvelous, far more marvelous then these energy consuming defenses. In all my years in radio, I made so many friends and shared some incredible moments. Why do some of you cats want to turn this wonderful thing into a bad rerun of "Cross Fire?" As Burt Lancaster says in the film LOCAL HERO, "We can do good things here!"
Edited by Guy Guden - April 20 2016 at 05:58 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 06:53 |
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"uninformed" is no less insulting, "re-Tardis" is a pun on retard no matter how you explain its origins, citing Peter Cook et al is not a mitigation of the offence that pun carries. Lack of knowledge of your radio programme content is not a measure of how uninformed (or retarded) we are on all matters regarding Progressive Rock... or humour, or anything else. The point of satire and parody is to be critical of the thing being satirised by the humorous use exaggeration and distorted caricature often through the use of caustic wit and sarcasm. Unfortunately this example was based upon a misunderstanding of the purpose of this thread and therefore is a misrepresentation of the arguments therein (i.e., it was a straw man fallacy). Since we have a member with the screen-name of "dr wu23" who has posted in this thread then it was not unfair for me to see your attempt at humour as a veiled insult not just to Doug but to all, especially when taken in the context of your earlier posts and the "Cliff-notes" quip. As you have now explained that no offence was intended then I can curtail my umbrage at the perceived insult. I may still fail to find it funny, but then I am British so what's new there?
If my lack of wisdom of (and apparent disinterest in) your radio programme's content slightly offends you then there is precious little I can do about that. Sorry. Edited by Dean - April 19 2016 at 07:34 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 07:04 |
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Point well made and duly taken to heart, I hereby apologise unreservedly. I haven't been privy to all your corrections of his misinformation, nor have I ever intended any criticism of what you do outside this thread, but to presume you guilty by association is unforgivable.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13627 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 09:57 |
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At least you spell it correctly 
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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Guy Guden
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2014 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2617 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 21:37 |
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Okay now, so what was the problem with XTC?
Actually I found it slightly ironic that in today's post was a Burning Shed package with an XTC English Settlement t-shirt I ordered for my wife. Anybody listen to the Peter Blegvad/Andy Partridge cd "Gonwards?" I found it delightfully eccentric and have always been fond of both artists. I am also a fan of Blegvad's old comic LEVIATHAN and recommend the hardbound collection for those who might enjoy the surrealism and off center, but very smart approach. cheers!
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hellogoodbye
Forum Senior Member
VIP member Joined: August 29 2011 Location: Troy Status: Offline Points: 7251 |
Posted: April 20 2016 at 04:26 |
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Never really like the voice of Partridge. He sings much better at home, especially on the first four album of the fuzzy Warbles compilations.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcSjRcyH25A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w5-k6pQJKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC6EgaeKuqY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIF8ZkKx_JE |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 20 2016 at 06:26 |
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Nothing. They were a great band and they have a lot of fans here. Initially unable to take Andy Partridge's overly affected vocal delivery on White Music I've 'followed' XTC since the release of Go2 were he'd started to calm-down a bit, (he improved considerably with each album as he became more comfortable with his own voice - Steven Wilson had a similar problem on the early Porcupine Tree albums), though what hooked me was the bonus EP of dub versions (Go+) that came with the original British release of the (vinyl) album. Andy's first solo album (Take Away) released two years later was more dub versions of XTC songs from their first three studio albums - these were collected together on CD as "Explode Together: The Dub Experiments 78-80" but sadly that is out of print and not one of the albums Andy has released on his Ape label through Burning Shed. While I have liked every album XTC have released since Go2, personally I think they suffer a little from inconsistency but over the years have released some cracking albums (English Settlement, The Big Express and Skylarking) so I can forgive them for that. Their lighter excursions into Psychedelic Pop under the pseudonym The Dukes of Stratosphere (25 O'Clock and Psonic Psunspot) are well worth a listen (reissued on Ape). What XTC did well was make some craftily clever Pop. In this respect I think they have no equal (Elvis Costello could do it, but he seemed to forget how). This is grown-up pop for adults - witty, cynical and biting at times, its precision and adroitness rivals the Beatles lyrically, musically, harmonically and vocally. While it wears its Psychedelic Pop heart on its sleeve (pun intended), hints at Art Rock (but not as much as you'd think) and occasionally has some skilful Baroque Pop arrangements (notably from Todd Rundgren on Skylarking - 1000 Umbrellas is a particularly sumptuous example), it's a million miles away from Progressive Rock. If I were forced to describe it in Prog terms I'd say it's like Canterbury stripped of its Jazz and Avant Garde excesses, but all that really says is it's unashamedly English Home Counties Pop-Rock (just swap Kent for Wiltshire). The problem is not with XTC or their music. The problem is the Prog Related category here at Prog Archives since that is the only valid category under which they could possibly be added to the Archive (database). Since you are new to the Archive side of the site that is incredibly difficult to explain (though I have made an attempt in the parallel "Should XTC be considered Prog Related?" thread if you care to follow the paper-trail). What people have difficulty with is the addition criteria (listed as 7 points in the Prog Related definition) and the very specific suggestion/nomination/acceptance policy for Prog Related. Yup - dems da rools, goddammit, - so let's clear the air about these so-called rules by first stating what they are not: They do not determine what is Prog or what is related to Prog; They do not grant a free-pass to any artist who meets some or all of the criteria; They are not intended to allow the addition of every band or artist that people think is related to Progressive Rock; They are not there to allow anyone to add their favourite non-Prog band; They are not there to permit the addition of progressive (adj.) artists that don't fit into other Prog (n.) sub-genres; They are not a qualitative measure; They do not restrict the artistic creativity of the artists in any way; They are not there to pigeon-hole an artist or band; They are not a musicological categorisation; They are not associative ("IF X THEN Y" aka "Related-to-Prog-Related"); and most of all, They are [deliberately] not democratic (but not undemocratic either). Simply put - the intentional purpose of the policy is to limit the number of bands and artists added to this category under the strict control of the Admin team. This is not part of some old never-ending Inclusive/Exclusive argument bollocks, nor is it (as some of the more cynical pundits will state) a ploy to draw people into the site (the category would be far more open if that were true). We have 180 artists listed in the Prog Related category out of a total of (to date) 9,557 bands and artists in the entire Archive - that is less than 2% - and we get more discussion over this category (and its cousin Proto-Prog) than the 19 "Prog sub-genre" categories added together. For such a high-maintenance category there has to be more in it that just the appeasement of those who shout the loudest. As I have said many times before - we could add hundreds more non-Prog bands into Prog Related, if we add every artist that had a progressive (adj.) approach that would run to thousands, and that makes no sense for a site that is dedicated to being an online Progressive Rock resource. This does not mean that we will never add a band into Prog Related, but it means that when we do it will be an exceptional case. And that requires that the people suggesting and promoting the addition make an equally exceptional case for their addition that can be clearly stated in a manner that convinces not just a few people here, but is so water-tight that it cannot be shot down in flames by an uppity arsehole playing devil's advocate. Now, back to XTC. As you hopefully can tell, I do not believe that a good enough case has been made for them even though I am a fan who is very familiar with their work and their history. But I am neither arguing for nor against their addition, up until paragraph three of this post I have just been pointing out weaknesses in people's arguments that would prevent their addition so they can build a better PS: XTC were painfully loud when I saw them back in 1979 where, if I recall correctly, they were supported by Random Hold - a band that featured David Rhodes (who would later join Peter Gabriel's band) and Bill MacCormick of Quiet Sun, Matching Mole and 801 - if you missed Random Hold in the 80s then lend them an ear (www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIZ3HX-muAw) - interestingly (to me at least) Burning Shed sells David Rhodes solo albums (but unfortunately no Random Hold ones).
(that's coincidental, not ironic  ). The post-punk / alternative store section of Burning Shed also has some other equally excellent 1980's post-punk albums - Mrs Fripp (see my Avatar), Peter Murphy and The Comsat Angels appeal to me there... |
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20030 |
Posted: April 20 2016 at 07:30 |
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I was going to say you do recall correctly as I saw Random Hold, but then I remembered it was supporting Gabriel and not XTC (as I got tickets for XTC but to my eternally regret I couldn't go at the time). |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 20 2016 at 07:51 |
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I also saw Random Hold supporting Gabriel at least twice so I had my doubts too. I've since trawled the interwebs and can confirm that they supported XTC at Leicester Poly on 29th November 1979.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17509 |
Posted: April 20 2016 at 10:22 |
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Nice .. this is good ... very good!
Now, I'm thinking I need a drink! But, this is funny. I've never thought of "metal" ... that way, and the only album I ever thought was "meta;" was that Lou Reed big finger album.
Edited by moshkito - April 20 2016 at 10:25 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17509 |
Posted: April 20 2016 at 10:53 |
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Weird ... now we get comments because of education and schooling! Not about the music or the art itself! The comments are not intended to be condescending, or patronizing, but an invitation to listen to things a bit more, and find out about other musics ... or a show like Guy's or any of our comments, would be totally worthless. It all becomes ... I like it therefore it's good, and the rest is not up to snuff. I (STILL) do not like Gentle Giant, but I will never EVER, not appreciate the amazing and incredible musicianship in them, and what they did with it!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 20 2016 at 11:07 |
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I have made my peace with Guy over this so as far as I am concerned the matter is closed. However, I will say that if you do not intend to be condescending then resist the temptation to talk down to us in this way. Seriously, it is patronising. Who are you to say that people here do not listen to things a bit more, (than what?!?), and who are you to say they do not find out about other music?
Relevancy? Nothing here is about good or bad music, or whether you like something or not. If you think that is how this site and its members operate then you will never understand anything here.
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Atavachron wrote: