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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 17509
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 Posted: April 06 2016 at 09:56 |
Hi,
Goodness ... I must be getting old ... I only have one Capt album and it is a later one ... Moonbeams and Bluejeans ... or something like that ... it's very nice stuff ... "Observatory Crest" ... and such, but all in all I think of him as just another balladeer and singer. I think of this stuff as "personal", and as such, I'm not sure that many of these folks think of a musical style at all ...
If we think he is "progressive", pretty soon we have to say that Bob Dylan is as well, by having introduced electric guitar to folk music that at one time was considered a sin, and worse. Times are different, and were different, and I sometimes think that influences are not as clear as we might think, even if this or that are around. But for someone in the LA area, to not think of blues or rock, or latin music ... is a bit weird, but then, even Hollywood movies were not that influenced by that for their movies ... so there is something else happening, that shows an independent and a very different spirit.
I like his poetry like delivery. it's very nice, and maybe it is just that ... music for his poems?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Affek
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 03 2016
Location: Poland
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Points: 36
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Posted: April 07 2016 at 11:38 |
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"Moonbeams..." and the second 1974 one (don't remember its name, sorry) are usually regarded as a disgrace to Captain's music, as they bear no resemblence to his earlier and later stuff. They are like "Under Wraps" for Jethro Tull.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20623
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Posted: April 07 2016 at 22:59 |
 Affek wrote:
"Moonbeams..." and the second 1974 one (don't remember its name, sorry) are usually regarded as a disgrace to Captain's music, as they bear no resemblence to his earlier and later stuff. They are like "Under Wraps" for Jethro Tull.
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You are probably thinking of 'Unconditionally Guaranteed' and those 2 are considered weak albums but there are a few decent tracks on them. Beefheart was so odd in the way he combined various musical elements and poetry he almost deserves a category of his own.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 11618
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Posted: April 12 2016 at 14:29 |
Affek wrote:
Should Captain Beefheart be considered prog rock? |
Like thousands of bands and artists on PA I don't think many members consider Beefheart to be "prog rock" as such. But that's not really a criteria to be added to one of the site's many sub genres. So its not really that much of a dilemma.
That said compared to various progressive acts in the archives like Klaus Schulze, Codona, Aranis, Art Zoyd, Oregon, Dead Can Dance to name a few... The Captain undoubtedly rocks, and more often than not with a progressive approach.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17509
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 09:17 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Affek wrote:
Should Captain Beefheart be considered prog rock? |
Like thousands of bands and artists on PA I don't think many members consider Beefheart to be "prog rock" as such. But that's not really a criteria to be added to one of the site's many sub genres. So its not really that much of a dilemma.
That said compared to various progressive acts in the archives like Klaus Schulze, Codona, Aranis, Art Zoyd, Oregon, Dead Can Dance to name a few... The Captain undoubtedly rocks, and more often than not with a progressive approach. |
I kinda think of people like this, as "progressive" as an artist, even though as a musician they aren't. I mean, the same thing can be said about Bob Dylan, whose words we can just about quote from a song or two, and yet the music, for us? ... heck we remember Jimi's version better than any of Bob's songs, see?
In my way of thinking, Bob is progressive in his "expression", which makes it progressive when stacked against a pop music world, and a top of the pops world, which in a funny sort of way, even the PA is, although not a bad one by any stretch of the imagination!
It's like saying that Tom Waits and Leonard Cohen are "progressive", and they are, in their expression, not the music they use to back up much of their own poetry and words. And I think this is a side of this definition that may need to get cleaned up a bit, because there are a lot of bands that fall into this area (XTC comes to mind) because of their "individuality" and how they express themselves.
This, is, (usually) valuable and important in Europe, that has a literary history of hundreds and hundreds of years, and there has always been a "lesson" in those studies ... the expression is important. But the world of top of the pops and is not interested in "expression", only in the sales and was the song a hit or not.
I just think we have to get past the "sales" and get onto the meat of the subject ... and then make a good/better call ... but I can see why folks like the Captain, and even XTC would be such a problem ... you can't define anything, because it's got it all and none of it at the same time.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 11:04 |
moshkito wrote:
Saperlipopette! wrote:
Affek wrote:
Should Captain Beefheart be considered prog rock? |
Like thousands of bands and artists on PA I don't think many members consider Beefheart to be "prog rock" as such. But that's not really a criteria to be added to one of the site's many sub genres. So its not really that much of a dilemma.
That said compared to various progressive acts in the archives like Klaus Schulze, Codona, Aranis, Art Zoyd, Oregon, Dead Can Dance to name a few... The Captain undoubtedly rocks, and more often than not with a progressive approach. |
I kinda think of people like this, as "progressive" as an artist, even though as a musician they aren't. I mean, the same thing can be said about Bob Dylan, whose words we can just about quote from a song or two, and yet the music, for us? ... heck we remember Jimi's version better than any of Bob's songs, see? |
That really, really, really ...  ...really, really isn't what "progressive" means.
moshkito wrote:
In my way of thinking, Bob is progressive in his "expression", which makes it progressive when stacked against a pop music world, and a top of the pops world, which in a funny sort of way, even the PA is, although not a bad one by any stretch of the imagination! |
That really, really, really ... ...really, really isn't what "progressive" means.
moshkito wrote:
It's like saying that Tom Waits and Leonard Cohen are "progressive", and they are, in their expression, not the music they use to back up much of their own poetry and words. |
That really, really, really ... ...really, really isn't what "progressive" means.
moshkito wrote:
And I think this is a side of this definition that may need to get cleaned up a bit, because there are a lot of bands that fall into this area (XTC comes to mind) because of their "individuality" and how they express themselves. |
That really, really, really ... ...really, really isn't what "progressive" means.
What we need to "clean up" (more that a ruddy "bit") is all the silly misappropriation of the word "progressive". 
moshkito wrote:
This, is, (usually) valuable and important in Europe, that has a literary history of hundreds and hundreds of years, and there has always been a "lesson" in those studies ... the expression is important. But the world of top of the pops and is not interested in "expression", only in the sales and was the song a hit or not. |
That really, really, really ... ...really, really isn't what "progressive" means.
moshkito wrote:
I just think we have to get past the "sales" and get onto the meat of the subject ... and then make a good/better call ... but I can see why folks like the Captain, and even XTC would be such a problem ... you can't define anything, because it's got it all and none of it at the same time. |
That really, really, really ... ...really, really isn't what "progressive" means.
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What?
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20623
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 12:31 |
^ So Dean......please tell us what 'progressive' really really really means.
Edited by dr wu23 - April 15 2016 at 12:31
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 12:33 |
dr wu23 wrote:
^ So Dean......tell us what 'progressive really really really means. |
I think I've expounded on that sufficiently over the past 9 years to make further pontification somewhat unnecessary. 
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What?
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Cosmiclawnmower
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2010
Location: West Country,UK
Status: Offline
Points: 3627
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 15:43 |
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Oh go on though.. for those of us who haven't (for whatever reason) caught your transmissions on the subject.. (and, no, I'm not being sarcastic, I really would be interested to know)
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EddieRUKiddingVarese
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 04 2016
Location: Aust
Status: Offline
Points: 1802
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 18:43 |
Beefheart is prog rock, particularly Trout mask Replica and other early Beef albums I get tied of those who think Prog rock is the domain of early 70's British bands
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"Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes"
and I need the knits, the double knits!
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7951
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 22:48 |
Affek wrote:
HackettFan, he ceritanly is stranger than anything, Trout Mask Replica is one of the reasons I think Beefheart should be classified as prog - this album pushed boundaries of what rock music is capable of further than anything else. But on the other hand, Safe As Milk is a straightforward blues, which wasn't as progressive as, for example, This Was by Jethro Tull, which had some hints of what was going to happen with the band in near future. Zappa was rather grounded in doo-woop, but his work was progressive from the beggining. I think that calssifying Van Vliet as Avant-prog is very suitable for him.
Silly Puppy, I find listening to music from any other source than physical butchering. And I live in the central Poland, nice country to visit, but not so to live in ;).
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I forgot to look in with this thread for awhile. Let's see if I am possibly confused or not. There is no actual "Prog" classification on the site. An artist is considered as Prog if they're classified under one of the Prog sub genres. Beefheart is RIO/Avant Prog, therefore he is Prog. As I understand it, it only takes one album to ratify an artist for inclusion. Safe As Milk would not disqualify him anymore than the album, Blues With a Feeling, would disqualify Steve Hackett. Perhaps the question should be reframed as 'which Beefheart albums are progressive?' I actually don't agree with your assessment of Tull's This Was. I don't hear any hints of Prog at all on that album. I might throw in that I also don't hear any hints of Prog on the first Genesis album, as probably most would agree. I don't see what difference this makes. Zappa was progressive from the beginning because he managed to get the freedom to be so from the producers. My understanding is that Beefheart didn't have that freedom until Trout Mask Replica. He got it then because it was produced by Zappa, and Zappa provided that freedom. I do appreciate this thread topic, though. Welcome to the forum!
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7951
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Posted: April 15 2016 at 23:06 |
Dean wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
Beefhart is more Jazz than Blues and stranger still than any of that. I definitely don't know why being bluesy would be grounds for rejection from the Prog ranks. There's lots and lots of blues throughout well accepted Prog acts, Steve Hackett being one of them. Beefhart's childhood friend, Frank Zappa, was another. Jade Warrior was another. It varies in dosage, but it's pretty ubiquitous.
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The distinction is whether Blues is the main defining characteristic of the music or not. Since Blues formed the foundation for Rock Music in general (12-bar, 16-bar, scales, chord progressions, etc.,) then scratch beneath the surface and you'll find traces of the Blues everywhere.
As I have said before, Progressive Rock was a conscious shift away from the Blues leaving other bands to pursue the Blues Rock route. This divergence of Rock and Blues Rock began in the naissant Psychedelic Rock/Underground scenes of the late 60s with Blues Rock being the initially more successful branching on both sides of the Atlantic. Without getting into pointless who-was-first and who-invented-Prog arguments, the fusion of Jazz, Folk, Classical, Avant Garde and Ethnic music into Baroque Pop/<span style="line-height: 18.2px;">Psychedelic </span>Rock (that soon became recognised as Progressive Rock) took hold in the UK and quickly spread throughout Europe while in the USA Blues Rock fused with native blues-based musical genres (Jazz, Country & Western, Bluegrass, etc.,) and became the dominant post-Psych genre.
However, because even in the 1960s and 70s Music crossed the Atlantic at 2/3rds the speed of light both these forms of music were known of, and even popular to some degree on both sides of the Pond. But even then European Blues Rock bands were more successful in the USA than their compatriot Progressive Rock artists whereas in Europe they co-existed as two separate but equally popular genres. This is reflected in the paucity of 60s and 70s USA artists listed in the PA, which is not the result of any anglo-centric or euro-centric bias (as some would claim) but a stoic observation of how it was back then. Left-field artists such as Zappa and Beefheart are exceptions that prove the rule because they are not Blues Rock in the accepted meaning of the term even if they used Blues in their music. That we regard them as being part of the Progressive Rock movement (or scene) due to the avant garde jazz nature of their music.
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I wholeheartedly agree with every bit of this. Including the following, which could have been as if I wrote it myself:
Dean wrote:
...I may put a case against the inclusion of suggestions that I don't regard as being part of the Progressive Rock canon, (and would use the predominance of Blues as part of that exclusion argument), and then leave it to others to make the counter argument, but win or lose I accept the final outcome without protest. Though [Zappa and Beefheart were] added to the PA before I joined, I would not have argued against their inclusion. |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Frenetic Zetetic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 09 2017
Location: Now
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Points: 9233
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Posted: February 19 2018 at 03:02 |
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Absolutely yes.
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Mortte
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5538
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Posted: February 19 2018 at 03:51 |
I feel myself just stupid that I jump into this thread, but anyway I have never thought Beefheart as a prog. I don´t believe he himself never related to his music into any prog bands, maybe to Zappa, but on other hand when you know how their "friendship" was really complex...I really just don´t want to define Beefheart, but if I had to, I think he´s music is very unique mix of blues, avant & jazz. And I am not going to continue this, this is so uninteresting.
Naturally I think he´s much greater than most prog artists.
And I haven´t read the earlier posts, propably saying something somebody has already said.
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Should Captain Beefheart be considered prog rock?
