...and Then There Were Three vs Duke

El Duke

Behind the Lines/Duchess/Guide Vocal/Turn it on Again/Duke's Travels/Duke's End 

cemego wrote: One REALLY LOUD listen to Down And Out from And Then There Were Three would convince anyone in this poll!  "right between the eyes"..

 

Hercules wrote: esky wrote: Hercules wrote: Neither of them.   Genesis suffered a massive stroke after The Lamb (losing Gabriel, the band's brain) and a fatal cardiac haemorrhage after Wind and Wuthering (losing Hackett, the band's heart).   After that, all their music is pop - good pop in some cases, but not really prog and nowhere near the standard of the Trespass to Wind and Wuthering era. Just another broad comment from just another Petey lover who doesn't come close to a worthy thought on the matter. I've said it before, and I'll probably have to say it again. After The Lamb,' Genesis didn't lose anything more than a great singer who had little more to give. With this loss came a whole new presentation of prog (ATOTT and 'Wuthering)  that was as proficient as the last batch of stew thunk up by Gabriel and Banks, both the shared brains and heart of the band (Hackett was never allowed to be more than its talented right-hand man). By the way, The Lamb' was a jumbled mix of this and that, stylishly packaged and released right in time for the holiday shopping season. It wasn't this great dividing event in the history of the band between "good" and "bad."   Not a "Petey lover" at all; just a long term fan of the band who saw their standard gradually slide after Selling England and plummet after Wind & Wuthering. The Lamb itself is not a great but merely a very good album in my opinion; the concept, which was entirely Gabriel's idea, and the lyrics, also entirely his, work fine but there's too much filler and it lasts too long. (And in my post I also included Trick of the Tail and (to a lesser extent) Wind & Wuthering in their golden era so to state that I view Gabriel's departure as a dividing line between good and bad is ludicrous. I suggest you read and analyse posts properly before writing such crass simplifications).   But the stresses in the band are evident at times with lyricist Gabriel clearly wanting to pull the band one way and the composers (mainly Banks) another. Gabriel had PLENTY more to give (look at his solo music for evidence), but it wasn't compatible with what the others wanted. In the same way, Hackett was eternally frustrated because he was writing amazing music which the band didn't want to use; he had to fight to get anything of his on an album.   Collins is also a reasonable vocalist but nowhere near as interesting as Gabriel and this shows on TOTT and W&W. But the final straw was the departure of Hackett, the one member who was determined to keep the music progressive. Banks and Rutherford went with Collins in pursuing a more commercial approach; Hackett has said many times that he wasn't comfortable with this or the refusal to include his highly progressive songs, so he left.   If you think I'm a Gabriel fanboy, you're wrong. I regard Hackett as the member whose loss was the final straw.   And as for "worthy thoughts", I think you're rather arrogant to think that your simplistic view is in any way more informed or sophisticated than mine.

Bravo, old man, bravo! But what's all this then? You did write that the band "suffered a massive stroke" after Gabriel jumped ship, what what? For being on life support, the remaining blokes sure put out two of the finest examples of English prog in Petey's wake. Cor? And being the resulting effort after its "fatal cardiac hemmorage," And Then There Were Three... certainly represents a standard that most modern bands only aspire to. Oh Blimey, there I go with another arrogant, crass, and simplistic conjecture. Too right, though, too right. Carry on and all that bloody rut!

Of course ATTWT. Duke is excellent album too, but i think is more poppy than ATTWT, and more inconsistent. Some tracks are excellent like Duke's Travels/Duke's end, Cul-De-Sac and Man of Our Times, other tracks are very good like Behind the Lines/Duchess/Guide Vocal and Heathaze. But some tracks like Misunderstanding, Alone Tonight, and Please don't ask are just pop, boring ballad songs (not really bad, but they drop the quality of this album).

ATTWT is more consistent, this album have some excellent tracks (Down & Out, Burning Rope, The Lady Lies, Undertow, Deep in the Motherlode). Others are ranging between good and very good tracks, even Follow You Follow Me served pleasant ending to this album. IMHO that song is one of the best Genesis pop song ever released.


Edited by Frayz - April 14 2016 at 21:11

Duke for me

And Then There Were Three.  Il Duce was pretty good too.

I must say a few Genesis albums could have benefitted from outstanding material from the guys whoo couldn't get their material on board for whatever reason. Even the Genesis number Inside And Out should have been on W and W or Three (the 2 extra tracks on the box set along with the demagnetised tape heads - or whatever he used to get the thing to sound listenable able makes it even better.

Imagine if Spectral Mornings and In The Air Tonight had been given the Genesis appearance. Perhaps if the CD format had been around then things may have been a whole lot different. No format limitations in sonic or content quantity. Genesis are one of the few bands in any sub genre of rock music that benefit from more full versions of their albums - the eighties era albums generally work better once all the extras get complied from the box sets.

IMHO Collins might be a better vocalist than Gabriel but for Genesis Gabriel had a more interesting series of characters that brought pre-Trick material to life. On thing for sure, it's not the singer that brought the CAS era it's the change of drummer I think. All those years of Phil the drummer then no Phil.

Has prog rock been defined yet? (Heh.)




Edited by uduwudu - April 13 2016 at 06:37

Puke because there's a few hard-to-sit-through songs off of 'Three compared to just a couple off of Puke, 'Three doesn't have Heathaze, and on the Puke filmed commentary from the 2006(?) CD/DVD release, Collins said that the album was the first time his drums sounded good on record (or something to that effect).

micky wrote: Duke man.. by many a light year! By far the best album I thought Genesis did

micky wrote: dr wu23 wrote: micky wrote: Duke man.. by many a light year! By far the best album I thought Genesis did I just lost my lunch......... bah... there is no accounting for people's tastes is there. I've never understood what you all see in those earlier albums... then again.. a LOT of people don't. I just happened to end up in the one place on the internet where their boring, sopheric, amateurish attempts to do serious arty music is worshipped and beloved.