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Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: March 16 2016 at 12:19
Not sure when but they're definitely on Autobahn. So that's 1974.
Aha, the equipment list is here and suggests they were using a Vox Percussion King in 1973. http://kraftwerkfaq.hu/equipment.html#equipment
At the same time, TD were using percussive effects on Ricochet, but by basically wiring up a huge Moog modular and using white noise to produce drum effects. Much more complicated. Percussion on Kraftwerk albums tends to be very simple indeed, it's much less so on contemporary TD stuff. Programming a drum machine and patching a Moog modular can not really be compared - the former is dozens of times less difficult than the latter.
Incidentally, you can still buy analogue drum machines. MFB make something call the Tanzbar. Not my cup of tea, though.
PS Guldbalmsen, thanks for that earlier Ruckzuck post. Enjoyed it - it'd passed me by beforehand.
In 40 years of playing, I've never been tempted to buy a drum machine. As soon as Kraftwerk switched over to drum machines, well, that was the end of it, really. ;-) (By contrast, TD used a much more complicated method of doing electronic percussion.)
Kraftwerk - even the simplistic stuff they did later, is influential on modern electronic music. That's not to say it was good or revolutionary, but it certainly did condition and form the basis of synthpop and New Wave. Turning the contour down on an early Mini produced a different sound. I have no problems with them doing it - what I have issues with is the total commercialism they sank to, becoming a parody of their former selves.
Interesting. You have a such experience & insight. Fine, I think I get it. So can you tell me that it actually was Kraftwerk who created synthpop and New Wave, not Buggles and alike ? Did Kraftwerk create that very simple and kinda naive style/genre in the late 70īs ? I mean, they simply turned progressive electronic (rock) music into NW ? Donīt get wrong I will not blame anyone, just want to understand the history of the transition from progressive rock music to lesser (sub)genres. Now four decades later I feel that it as comfortably numb.
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: March 17 2016 at 02:51
Buggles (a pop band rather than an electronic pop band) came a long time after Kraftwerk. Kraftwerk start going downhill in 1974. Buggles was about 1980. Interestingly, ex Yes members formed Buggles. The shame of it all. ;-)
I'd put a date of about 1979 on the beginning of New Wave, around about Tubeway Army / John Foxx time.
Gary Numan et al picked up on the (musically) simplistic approach of Kraftwerk.
Look at it like this - the technology was little to do with it. Kraftwerk did a lot of stuff using a Minimoog (as did Gary Numan) but then again, so did Rick Wakeman, and they were poles apart. It wasn't the technology which drove synthpop / New Wave et al, it was that Kraftwerk set the basis for synthesizers being used in an extremely musically simplistic manner.
By the late 70's, synths were becoming more common - ARP Odyssey / Korg MS series etc, and were becoming more affordable and mass market. I got my first Korg in about... what ? 82 ? 83 ??? Having got utterly bored with digital, I've recently gone back to analogue completely now and my last three albums and one EP were recorded using analogue technology. This is about half the gear below. I'm doing early Tangerine Dream / Hawkwind style stuff - the point being that the technology doesn't drive the music - the composer does.
Nor is it, I do assure you, a case of "turning a knob with an effect on it". I have no idea why some people think that it is. Modern electronic music is mainly electronic dance music, which isn't composed by musicians or people with any musical knowledge whatsoever- it's nearly 100% crap. There was a lot of crap around in the 1970's, and in my opinion, Kraftwerk have been a major influence on bad electronic music. I'll still pick up a few ideas from them, but.......everyone does.
Reason for a transition from prog rock to "lesser genres" ? The general public got bored of making the effort to listen to music and the industry was taken over by people who were more concerned about making a fast buck than releasing good music. But that surely is another post. ;-)
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: March 17 2016 at 02:54
PS there's another three synths coming this year and a second cabinet for the modular. God help us all. ;-)
That's all analogue above. Matter of fact, the preamps are valve based and there's a valve based oscilloscope there, too. There are another two racks being built - again, valve preamps. All the sound production is done by analogue means: same technology as was being used in 1974. Even down to the sequencers.
There were not many bands who could affford to do this in the early 70's. A Moog modular cost the equivalent of a house at the time. A friend of mine was offered TD's old Moog - he had the money for either a house or a Moog, he chose the house. ;-)
Now all this stuff is easily affordable. One thing you can thank Kraftwerk for is popularising electronic music: if it hadn't gone mass market, studios would look very different nowadays.
Dave, Iīm speechless. Ýour last replies has more true information than I have red for ages on any music forum.
I very much appreciate you input. And I completely agree that near all electronic music of today is crap indeed. Iīd add that nearly all music made today is mostly crap, but thatīs nothing under the Sun, decline of popular music started already in 1974 (as you say), long before 1979. Unfortunately. Punk has nothing to do with Progīs decline, Prog gradually started to become too self-indulgent & kinda lazy and by loosing its spark finally killed its own bird (excuse my clumsy expression, lol), after itīs ultimate peak, "Tales from Topographic Oceans" by Yes, in 1973. Sad but true. Donīt get me wrong, Yes recovered and actually found themselves exploring very different sounds for them in 1978, this time much colder and somewhat remote though. Now after you have explained the times it seems to me that Rick Wakeman created, say a Tangerine Dream or a Klaus Schulze (I completely understand Rick if that was the case) sound for Yes, in a way. And he did found something new and therefore interesting and the band kicked ass again, even harder than ever. Sadly, nearly all critics tried to kill that new album but thatīs nothing new under the Sun either.
That reference to Yes is another story, of course.
Ah, it was those Yes men who actually formed Buggles, itīs their disgrace, isnīt it.
I got bored with digital already from the very start, after having heard a handful of digital copies (CD) of some rock classic albums. They all sounded just awful
Edited by Son.of.Tiresias - March 17 2016 at 11:30
Joined: March 28 2010
Location: Alabama
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Points: 2866
Posted: March 17 2016 at 23:37
Guldbamsen wrote:
Kraftwerk have two very different sounding stages to their career: before and after Autobahn. Their early krautrock years are definitely my favourite..
I gather most folks instantly think of 'The Robots' or something to that effect when they hear Kraftwerk mentioned. I bet they haven't heard this:
And even more haven't heard what is quite possibly, at least it's what I consider, their best work, Live On Radio Bremen 1971. Absolutely f**king killer Sabbath meets Krautrock jams. Unfortunately Kraftwerk don't seem to care about live releases so a lot of good or decent early live recordings are bootlegs even if they have pretty excellent sound like this one.
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: March 18 2016 at 03:13
Ah yes, apologies about Buggles, I was trying desperately to forget anything about Trevor Horn et al.
Some early Kraftwerk is, indeed, interesting. Why do I dislike them so much ? Well, the problem I have with them is that they're more about marketing themselves and selling a shallow and musically worthless product than they are about actually producing music. They paved the way for shallow synth pop, such as Marc (spit) Almond, OMD, Ultrapox etc etc. That was the musical background I grew up to here in the UK. No wonder I went back a generation, musically. Perhaps I should be thanking them.
PS Drama. Well, as an album, it had its' moments, as did Tormato, but Yes were more "Not really" at the time. For me, anyway. ;-)
Joined: September 03 2005
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Posted: March 18 2016 at 04:07
^ What's wrong with the Buggles duo ?? Excellent, artsy New-Wave. They put out 2 albums, both have some terrific tunes on them. And DRAMA is one of my favourite Yes albums (top 3 - along with Relayer and Topographic). As for Kraftwerk, the debut is THE BEST. Then Ralf And Florian, and The Man-Machine, then the remainder are decent, without being anything spectacular. As a 14 y.o. back in '86, I bought Electric Cafe, and I thought this was 'The Shizz', I thought I was so cool listening to this German electronica whilst everyone around me were all INXS and Midnight Oil. I still like the album, dorky though it may be.
Ah, it was those Yes men who actually formed Buggles, itīs their disgrace, isnīt it.
that's incorrect, Trevor Horn and Geoff Downes joined Yes after the first Buggles album (the one with Video Killed the Radio Star)
Whatīs the difference ? Howeīs and Squireīs disgrace nevertheless.
why? If you ask me, Drama is an excellent album.
You worship wrong gods.
LOL what are the RIGHT gods (then)?
The answer lies in yesterday, yes it is very funny yet very serious . Why you blamed me of wrong info about Buggles history as I never said that the Yes men formed Buggles ? Dave said it first and I just believed him blindly. So itīs funny you know exactly my opinion about rock after 1973 (if you really have red my posts), so why you asked my opinion about that NW (or whatever it is) album as you already knew my answer in the first place ? Why waste your precious time as I wouldnīt agree ? Can you explain yourself ?
Ah yes, apologies about Buggles, I was trying desperately to forget anything about Trevor Horn et al.
Some early Kraftwerk is, indeed, interesting. Why do I dislike them so much ? Well, the problem I have with them is that they're more about marketing themselves and selling a shallow and musically worthless product than they are about actually producing music. They paved the way for shallow synth pop, such as Marc (spit) Almond, OMD, Ultrapox etc etc. That was the musical background I grew up to here in the UK. No wonder I went back a generation, musically. Perhaps I should be thanking them.
PS Drama. Well, as an album, it had its' moments, as did Tormato, but Yes were more "Not really" at the time. For me, anyway. ;-)
You gave me missinfo about Bugglesī beginning, these are essential things to understand history. Nevermind.
Can you tell me exactly what kind of gear, analog and digital (amps, effect devices etc. ) Wakeman, Howe & Squire used in studios in 1976-79 ?
Edited by Son.of.Tiresias - March 18 2016 at 09:30
Joined: May 23 2013
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Points: 2839
Posted: March 18 2016 at 10:45
The best way, I think, to understand Buggles is to understand that they're rubbish, and then ignore them from there. I cannot pollute my mind with such twaddle. ;-)
There are tons of equipment lists for early Yes - basically, we know Steve Howe's main guitar was a Gibson ES 175. Chris Squier used a Rickenbacker 4001 bass (or was it a 4000 ? ) - anyway, he got the mono version, rewired it to stereo and played through two heads, I seem to recall. Rick Wakeman used a variety of keyboards and synths, but he's most famous for using a Minimoog and a Mellotron.
Not that you can ever recreate the sound, even using the same vintage equipment. You could learn "The Star Spangled Banner" backwards, tap Jimi Hendrix on the shoulder at Woodstock, take the guitar off him half way through........ and you still wouldn't sound like him. ;-)
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
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Points: 2839
Posted: March 18 2016 at 10:50
Just for those who are uncertain as to whether or not Buggles were of any musical worth whatsoever.... Ladies and gentlemen, I present what was most likely the point that proper music died. ;-)
The best way, I think, to understand Buggles is to understand that they're rubbish, and then ignore them from there. I cannot pollute my mind with such twaddle. ;-)
There are tons of equipment lists for early Yes - basically, we know Steve Howe's main guitar was a Gibson ES 175. Chris Squier used a Rickenbacker 4001 bass (or was it a 4000 ? ) - anyway, he got the mono version, rewired it to stereo and played through two heads, I seem to recall. Rick Wakeman used a variety of keyboards and synths, but he's most famous for using a Minimoog and a Mellotron.
Not that you can ever recreate the sound, even using the same vintage equipment. You could learn "The Star Spangled Banner" backwards, tap Jimi Hendrix on the shoulder at Woodstock, take the guitar off him half way through........ and you still wouldn't sound like him. ;-)
Yes yes... I understand all this, its very difficult to get the very same sound out again. Did the Yes men use any digital equipment recording "Going for the One" and "Tormato", anywhere in the way from gear to recording desk ? This is very important as you understand as well.
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Davesax1965 wrote:
. Why you blamed me of wrong info about Buggles history as I never said that the Yes men formed Buggles ? Dave said it first and I just believed him blindly. So itīs funny you know exactly my opinion about rock after 1973 (if you really have red my posts), so why you asked my opinion about that NW (or whatever it is) album as you already knew my answer in the first place 
? Why waste your precious time as I wouldnīt agree ? Can you explain yourself ?