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micky View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2016 at 20:52
push at someone hard enough and they will push back. Of course I'm not condoning violence but it is the bed that Trump and the GOP have made.  Be thankful any violence unleashed by the left will be a few broken noses and arrests. When the right gets violent.. guns are brought out and people die.

It is what I have been saying for some time. It is a war.  For the longest time it was a one legged ass kicking contest. Finally the left seems to have got tired of being kicked around and decided to fight back.

While I don't condone it... I sure applaud it.  Just look at the reactions to what has been going on.  Tone deaf. So what good will civil disobediance do.  Didn't Rubio blame OBAMA for what happened in Chicago. Never mind the long established GOP tactic of playing the politics of fear and division.  It has finally come to roost.  It is the bully crying out that is was unfair to get punched.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2016 at 21:46
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/11/trumps-good-old-days-when-battering-protesters-was-celebrated-in-the-white-house/
I'd say the protesters overall did a good job not being violent, and I definitely went to bed happy last night with the good news. I've seen so many posts today about freedom of speech, but people seem to forget that the protesters were practicing their right to free speech and assembly as well. Obviously I am not supporting the handful of instigators on either side, but I think the sheer number of protesters spoke a lot louder than that tiny minority and it was generally a good example of protesting/mass civil disobedience and how loud and powerful an action it can be.
I hope that leftists across the country continue to stand up against the hateful rhetoric Trump espouses, and the blatantly violent and racist supporters who have been assaulting protesters and reporters at Trump rallies so often lately.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 00:11
The thing smells a bit funny to me, almost like a provocation.  From what I can tell the protesters were genuine, but it does smack of 1960s instigation tactics.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 07:08
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


I hope that leftists across the country continue to stand up against the hateful rhetoric Trump espouses, and the blatantly violent and racist supporters who have been assaulting protesters and reporters at Trump rallies so often lately.


Clap

yep.  Perhaps I am in the minority what you post there is exactly why I personally have no problem with violence. I have thought for some time we would arrive at this point.  The level of hatred directed at the left and minorities was bound to finally push some to retaliate.  Sure if we were saints we could turn the other cheek but none of us are saints and you can only push people too far before they snap. 

Do you reason with a bully, make him see the error in his ways? Of course not.  Racial/social division and playing on the fears and outright bigotry of the ignorant has been page 1 of the Right Wing/GOP playbook since it was shown in clear terms in 1988 to actually work.

Do you try civil disobedience? You will have as much luck with that as running to your teacher complaining of being bullied on the playground. 

The only way you deal with bullies is by punching them in the face and standing up to them.   There is a reason violence is one of mankinds favorite tools since the time we started walking upright.

It works...  Perhaps an unpopular thought.  But the truth doesn't always reflect the reality we want to see.

So what does violence achieve. I firmly believe we are the midst of a culture war in this country and have been for some time.  This will mobilize the right and their racist supporters.  This will mobilibize the left. Yeah yeah yeah. What it might do... is finally wake up the apathetic center and perhaps they will see the root causes of it... and repudiate the policies and candidates. I think that been happening to a certain degree. Violence accelerate that .... and expose to the more pragmatic center that their votes are important and repudiating the right and their inherently divisive and destructive ideology that stand completely contrary to what this damned country should stand for.

rant over... LOL


Edited by micky - March 13 2016 at 07:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 11:06
Idk but in an all out violent cultural war, the right may end up enjoying the edge.  When the left gets violent, people cry anarchy and revolution and get fearful.  When the right retaliates, it will be in the name of 'patriotism' and notwithstanding Ambrose Bierce's words, patriotism works well with fools.  And they say you should never underestimate the power of stupidity in large numbers.  Obama actually does a very good job of destroying both Trump and GOP with deadly humour.  Maybe whoever gets to contest the election against Trump (if he wins the nomination) can do likewise which will probably be more effective than violence. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 11:14
Violence merely increases the opportunities for demagogues to flourish. I would have thought that obvious to anyone with even a passing interest in politics.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 11:15
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Violence merely increases the opportunities for demagogues to flourish. I would have thought that obvious to anyone with even a passing interest in politics.

Exactly.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 11:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Violence merely increases the opportunities for demagogues to flourish. I would have thought that obvious to anyone with even a passing interest in politics.

Exactly.  


Smile I would have thought it quite obvious to anyone with a passing interest in American politics, and with our long history of racism and institutional discrimination, that violence is not necessary for demagogues to flourish.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 11:31
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Violence merely increases the opportunities for demagogues to flourish. I would have thought that obvious to anyone with even a passing interest in politics.

Exactly.  


Smile I would have thought it quite obvious to anyone with a passing interest in American politics, and with our long history of racism and institutional discrimination, that violence is not necessary for demagogues to flourish.



Same as in lots of other places.  The right thrives on instigating fear.  And the sheep are a fearful lot, both Orwell and Waters say so and they were/are wise men.  The left too can use fear, fear of the rich exploiting the poor. I am guessing that is not so effective in America as in other places LOL and more so if Hilary Clinton makes that appeal.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 11:47
oh yeah.. that won't play.. never has played here. LOL It isn't economics that drives this.  As Steinbeck say.. we are all temporally embarrassed millionaires here. 

All one has to do appeal the basic notions this country was founded on. Which sides represents it and governs responsibly and which side flies completely in the face of the values this country was founded on and doesn't mean to goven.. but rule.  Both sides are fairly well entrenched it is the middle I hope is disgusted by this violence and has enough smarts and good sense to see the reasons for it and vote accordingly Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 12:22
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

oh yeah.. that won't play.. never has played here. LOL It isn't economics that drives this.  As Steinbeck say.. we are all temporally embarrassed millionaires here.

I think Bernie has helped bring a bit more acceptance to the idea, at least.

As far as violence goes, I'm much less concerned about some spats between protesters and supporters than I am by the normalization of violence on a wide scale by Trump.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 12:40
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Violence merely increases the opportunities for demagogues to flourish. I would have thought that obvious to anyone with even a passing interest in politics.


Exactly.  


Smile I would have thought it quite obvious to anyone with a passing interest in American politics, and with our long history of racism and institutional discrimination, that violence is not necessary for demagogues to flourish.




Micky, I said that violence increases the opportunities for demagogues to flourish, not that it was a necessary condition or state of existence.

Every democracy has had its loonies and demagogues, throughout history. They tend to do well, though, when people feel put on, disadvantaged, or "victims", and especially when they can give out their message in a climate of fear and violence.

The headlines around the world were not "Trump causes riots", they, were, by and large, "protesters force Trump to quit rally". There is a very subtle difference between the two. The former is Trump's fault. The latter provides his supporters with even more reason to feel put upon, and, of course, justifies entirely their use of force as a countermeasure.

Perhaps I should stress here, for the avoidance of all doubt, that this spineless and naive Limey does not want to be associated with any such violence, from either side. It will not end well, believe me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2016 at 23:35
Good post. Yes, subtle but important difference.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2016 at 05:53
Trump has his own bullies. they should wear brown shirts like the SA (Sturmabteilung, Hitler's gang for the dirty workl who were responsible for the Reichstagsbrand (Reichstag fire) and the Kristallnacht (crystal night)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2016 at 06:11
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Idk but in an all out violent cultural war, the right may end up enjoying the edge.  When the left gets violent, people cry anarchy and revolution and get fearful.  When the right retaliates, it will be in the name of 'patriotism' and notwithstanding Ambrose Bierce's words, patriotism works well with fools.  And they say you should never underestimate the power of stupidity in large numbers.  Obama actually does a very good job of destroying both Trump and GOP with deadly humour.  Maybe whoever gets to contest the election against Trump (if he wins the nomination) can do likewise which will probably be more effective than violence. 


The American Right has pushing the idea for years that There Is No Such Thing As A Violent Conservative™ - any time anyone commits a violent act, they are assumed to be a Leftist, and even if they leave behind piles of hard-Right rhetoric, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is inevitably invoked.


"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2016 at 10:15
Originally posted by zappaholic zappaholic wrote:



The American Right has pushing the idea for years that There Is No Such Thing As A Violent Conservative™ - any time anyone commits a violent act, they are assumed to be a Leftist, and even if they leave behind piles of hard-Right rhetoric, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is inevitably invoked.



LOL, yeah, indeed no such thing as a violent conservative, only trigger happy war mongering conservatives.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2016 at 16:06
Meanwhile, here's an illustration of how parochial American politics can be:

John Kasich (governor of Ohio) is one of the remaining Republican presidential candidates.  He's pretty sure he's going to win the Ohio primary, and some polls indicate he might.  I heard on the radio this morning a campaign ad for Kasich.  The gist of it was that we haven't had a president from Ohio since Warren G. Harding, and we're due, so vote for Kasich so he can join the other Ohio presidents like Harding who make us proud to be from Ohio.  Seriously.  I heard this and was like, "Dudes.  Harding is widely considered one of the worst presidents this country has ever had, if not THE worst.  The man was corrupt from the word go.  Are you REALLY SURE you want to go there?"


"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2016 at 16:24
LOLLOL

Rolling around on the floor laughing. Wow.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2016 at 16:29
Originally posted by zappaholic zappaholic wrote:

Meanwhile, here's an illustration of how parochial American politics can be:

John Kasich (governor of Ohio) is one of the remaining Republican presidential candidates.  He's pretty sure he's going to win the Ohio primary, and some polls indicate he might.  I heard on the radio this morning a campaign ad for Kasich.  The gist of it was that we haven't had a president from Ohio since Warren G. Harding, and we're due, so vote for Kasich so he can join the other Ohio presidents like Harding who make us proud to be from Ohio.  Seriously.  I heard this and was like, "Dudes.  Harding is widely considered one of the worst presidents this country had been the greatest president ever: what kind of argument is that? just because there has not been a presidenthas ever had, if not THE worst.  The man was corrupt from the word go.  Are you REALLY SURE you want to go there?"

even if Harding had been the greatest president ever: what kind of argument is that? just because there has not been a president from whatever state for a long time does not mean there should be one now. if that is all a presidential candidate has to say for himself it is proof of his shortcomings


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2016 at 21:38
Well, when you come to think of it, it's the same kind of argument made for first black president or first woman president.  I mean, representation is all very well but at the end of the day you want the most capable leader from among the candidates as prez.  Any other reason isn't good enough.  Not that Obama has been a letdown, but "wee, he'll be our first black president" is superficial.
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