Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is the original Prog left-wing?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedIs the original Prog left-wing?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
Author
Message
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17857
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2016 at 15:49
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The origins of prog were, I believe, firmly rooted in protest to the Viet Nam war, arms race between USA and USSR (in which Great Britain was swept up), and other largely left-wing causes.  ...
 
AND, the IRA conflict, which would make many London'ers very close to it. And I still find that ""Epitath" is more about that conflict than Vietnam ...
 
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
presdoug View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8668
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2016 at 17:31
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

In Germany in the late sixties and seventies, certainly conservative leanings were associated with a conservative stance on culture, and all rock music, all that smelled remotely of excess, questioning values like "work hard, earn money, found a normal family and shut up" and perhaps, god forbid, of not respecting some laws (drugs!) was left to the lefties, although some of them were not that much into politics. (I'd guess it was similar in the UK and most European countries, although perhaps not as extreme as in Germany.)

Michael Karoli (Can) once said: "What made us different from all the other bands was that all the others had some kind of message and we didn't, we just wanted to play music." This is an attitude I love because I listen to the music for the music only; still they were up against the conservative establishment through the culture that was associated with it.
A very interesting scene created by early prog bands in Germany, and as you put it, what they were up against. Symphonic Prog band Wallenstein used to be called "Blitzkrieg", in total defiance and ridicule of their countries' Nazi past. (They kept the name for the title of their first album.)
             Then there was the obscure band German Oak from the early 70s, musically sort of in the style of early Amon Duul 2; but they  went so far as to include a few little excerpts of Hitler speaking in between songs, and their debut album was recorded in an old WW2 Bunker. Again, this was in a sort of leftist spirit ridiculing and mocking the older generation and the extreme right wing, fascist Nazis, who were still  a thorn in that younger generation's side.
                     A little later came Triumvirat's concept album Spartacus, depicting the story of the famous gladiator who tried to overthrow the Praetorian spirit of Imperial Rome. It kind of has a somewhat leftist feel to it, to me.
                  
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 7381
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2016 at 10:56
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The origins of prog were, I believe, firmly rooted in protest to the Viet Nam war, arms race between USA and USSR (in which Great Britain was swept up), and other largely left-wing causes.  ...
 
AND, the IRA conflict, which would make many London'ers very close to it. And I still find that ""Epitath" is more about that conflict than Vietnam ...
 

Thanks for reminding me of "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland!  I'm not sure what Fripp & Co. were writing about, but always assumed it was the posturing of the West (as NATO) vs. Soviet Union.  "Upon the instruments of death the sunlight brightly gleams" etc. 



Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17857
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 20 2016 at 14:54
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

             Then there was the obscure band German Oak from the early 70s, musically sort of in the style of early Amon Duul 2; but they  went so far as to include a few little excerpts of Hitler speaking in between songs, and their debut album was recorded in an old WW2 Bunker. Again, this was in a sort of leftist spirit ridiculing and mocking the older generation and the extreme right wing, fascist Nazis, who were still  a thorn in that younger generation's side. 
                  
 
And Amon Duul 2 used this and satirized it more than once. Their album "Made in Germany" is where you can here it ... I think it is "La Krautoma".
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
presdoug View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8668
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2016 at 11:40
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

             Then there was the obscure band German Oak from the early 70s, musically sort of in the style of early Amon Duul 2; but they  went so far as to include a few little excerpts of Hitler speaking in between songs, and their debut album was recorded in an old WW2 Bunker. Again, this was in a sort of leftist spirit ridiculing and mocking the older generation and the extreme right wing, fascist Nazis, who were still  a thorn in that younger generation's side. 
                  
 
And Amon Duul 2 used this and satirized it more than once. Their album "Made in Germany" is where you can here it ... I think it is "La Krautoma".
Thanks for the reference, I will check that out.Thumbs Up
Back to Top
altaeria View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 05 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Status: Offline
Points: 178
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2016 at 15:48
It's Progressive Rock . 

Progressive Rock . 

Progressive Rock .

I think that answers the question. 

Back to Top
WeepingElf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 373
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2016 at 15:55
Originally posted by altaeria altaeria wrote:

It's Progressive Rock . 

Progressive Rock . 

Progressive Rock .

I think that answers the question. 



Yep. Of course, there are different ways of being "progressive": artistic, technological, political. Prog is all three!

Or to put it differently: Prog started as an attempt to create the art music for a future, egalitarian, post-materialist society, the kind of society the Counterculture was intending to build.



Edited by WeepingElf - January 21 2016 at 16:10
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

"What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes."

Back to Top
Follix View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 02 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 130
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2016 at 16:22
60's and 70's?

It's rather rare to see an artist who spend most of his time on weed and/or acid being conservative. Especially in Europe.

Frank Zappa might be an exception?
Back to Top
Upbeat Tango Monday View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 10 2015
Location: Buenos Aires
Status: Offline
Points: 1189
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2016 at 09:37
I don't think so. Hell, I don't even think all members in any given band 70's band shared the same political ideology. But let's try...

Genesis leaned towards socialism
Yes leaned towards religion
Rush leaned towards classical liberalism (libertarianism if you are from the US and don't know what liberalism really means)
ELP leaned towards...who knows =S

So, short answer: NO






Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17857
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2016 at 10:51
Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:

But let's try...

Genesis leaned towards socialism
Yes leaned towards religion
Rush leaned towards classical liberalism (libertarianism if you are from the US and don't know what liberalism really means)
ELP leaned towards...who knows =S

So, short answer: NO
Love it ... and of course, some of us were just to the left of Genghis Khan, and to the right of Daffy Duck!
 
I find the question strange and weird ... if anyone spends 5 minutes and looks at the opening of the BBC special on the German scene (Krautrock one), you know right away that it was an international scene and not just a childish description of something that supposedly makes the music itself ... "progressive".
 
It's downright scary, that most folks won't even check out, or read a bit of the "Eurock" book by Archie Patterson. It details heavily many bands going back to the late 60's and their affiliations with various this and that and this and that ... which would give you the answer you DO NOT WANT ... because you want to believe that the music is insipid and has to have the 3 details in the definition ... that's childish and silly!
 
All music, regardless of what type it is, has a resonance of some sort in a social milieu. Very few composers and artists, are not a product of their environment ... and after all the schooling ... you still did not know that ... ooopppsss I forgot ... Bush made sure that he took that out of all schools so you would not know anything and ... forget it! Not worth the discussion!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
CharAznable View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: March 28 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2016 at 11:12
I don't think Prog is inherently political... Of course, individual bands might have their own leanings, but I don't think that stems from the scene overall itself.

Individual scenes, though... Krautrock and RIO were clearly left leaning
Back to Top
Sean Trane View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20339
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2016 at 11:40
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Love it ... and of course, some of us were just to the left of Genghis Khan, and to the right of Daffy Duck!


I guess you meant Scrooge McDuck (Donald' uncle or somethng)... Daffy is too daft to be a capitalist.


======================

Ian Anderson (JT) was certainly poliical in his early days (he still is, but seems somewhat different than back then), but to call him progressive as in left-leaning is one step I won't take.
Back to Top
infandous View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2016 at 13:09
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The origins of prog were, I believe, firmly rooted in protest to the Viet Nam war, arms race between USA and USSR (in which Great Britain was swept up), and other largely left-wing causes.  ...
 
AND, the IRA conflict, which would make many London'ers very close to it. And I still find that ""Epitath" is more about that conflict than Vietnam ...
 

Thanks for reminding me of "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland!  I'm not sure what Fripp & Co. were writing about, but always assumed it was the posturing of the West (as NATO) vs. Soviet Union.  "Upon the instruments of death the sunlight brightly gleams" etc. 







Quote from Greg Lake:  "'Epitaph' is basically a song about looking with confusion upon a world gone mad. King Crimson had a strange ability to write about the future in an extremely prophetic way and the messages this song contains are even more relative today than they were when the song was originally written."

I have a book about Crimson (can't think of the name right now) where Sinfield basically says the same thing.......Robert told him the song needed lyrics, and he walked around the block a couple of times and then came back and wrote down the lyrics he had just thought of that became Epitaph.

As to Rush, Peart has stated many times in interviews that his fixation on Ayn Rand was a product of his youth and he considers himself to be basically a Liberal.  The other two guys don't ever seem to say much about their political orientation and I wouldn't be surprised if they are just apolitical (not interested in politics at all).

There is no question that "progressive rock" of the 70's was mostly a product of Liberal ideals and notions.  That doesn't mean that all progressive rockers were Liberals by any means.  I suspect most of them didn't give much thought to their political orientation.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2016 at 06:10
Left wing is about progress, about moving forward.  Right wing is about enriching the well connected and privilege at the expense of the rest of us.  Conserving wealth and power for those that have it.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
timothy leary View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 29 2016 at 10:34
It takes two wings to fly
Back to Top
Upbeat Tango Monday View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 10 2015
Location: Buenos Aires
Status: Offline
Points: 1189
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2016 at 04:43
As someone who lived the last twelve years under an oppresive socialist regime I have some things to say. But I want to keep things polite, and if you want a strong government, censorship, theft and loss of individual freedoms, it's your call. But be warned: it's hell. "Owning stuff is bad" they say, unless you are part of the State. They used our money as they saw fit.
I couldn't buy records or boardgames because our govt banned imports, but even if they didn't I already lost 60% of my salary on taxes. Those were rough times Bernie Sanders style. We haven't recovered yet.

A few more things.
Artists tend to oppose opressive governments, but the thing they get wrong is: if left wing is in control, they become right wing fans. If the right is in control, the become left wing fans. If bands are on the winning side, it's not art but propaganda. And politics should be more than a football match between two teams, some of us don't want to be controlled, but free.


Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14955
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2016 at 10:09
Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:

As someone who lived the last twelve years under an oppresive socialist regime I have some things to say. But I want to keep things polite, and if you want a strong government, censorship, theft and loss of individual freedoms, it's your call. 


Just out of curiosity and lack of knowledge about Argentinian politics, is this about Argentina? (Your posting made me read the Wikipedia page on Kirchnerism, but this obviously can't tell me how it feels to live under such a government.)


Edited by Lewian - January 30 2016 at 10:12
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17857
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2016 at 14:11

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:


...
Quote from Greg Lake:  "'Epitaph' is basically a song about looking with confusion upon a world gone mad.

And I will immediately say ... that Greg, obviously, did not read or pay attention to what he was singing?

What he says that comment, it is a generic comment that fits better the work in 21st Century Schizoid Man, than it does Epitah.

Read this again ...

The wall on which the prophets wrote
Is cracking at the seams
Upon the instruments of death
The sunlight brightly gleams
When every man is torn apart
With nightmares and with dreams,
Will no one lay the laurel wreath
When silence drowns the screams

Now think of an explosion that just went off and the heck it created, and how many nightmares were created, and how silence drowned the screams (after the explosion and flash of light) ... and if there ever was a better allusion about bombs and explosions ... you and I probably missed them, then!

As clear as can be ...

Confusion will be my epitaph
As I crawl a cracked and broken path
If we make it we can all sit back and laugh,
But I fear tomorrow I'll be crying,
Yes I fear tomorrow I'll be crying
Yes I fear tomorrow I'll be crying

And this is how you feel, if you lose a special friend in that explosion and moment ... and by the time you make some sense of it, you can't ... and crying is next. You misss your friend, or loved one.

I can not find a better description of loving someone and losing them ... to a senseless war, a senseless bomb, and a senseless idealilsm. And that is what this is about ... plain and simple.

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:


...
King Crimson had a strange ability to write about the future in an extremely prophetic way and the messages this song contains are even more relative today than they were when the song was originally written."
...

I disagree. KC and many of their lyrics were more about the "here and now" and understanding of the moment of its happening, than our ideas. That these feelings and ideas endup being thought as prophetic, is actually wrong, since there is nothing prophetic about the whole album (ITCCK), but its poetic commentary is more with it and alive, than most ideas!

Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:


...
There is no question that "progressive rock" of the 70's was mostly a product of Liberal ideals and notions.  That doesn't mean that all progressive rockers were Liberals by any means.  I suspect most of them didn't give much thought to their political orientation.

Some did and some didn't. In Germany, a couple of communes were involved in other activities that were not exactly thought of as correct, or proper, and this may have hurt a band or two that we're not aware of. But saying that a republican in America is not smart enough to create a Rolling Stones to expouse their capitalist ideals that allows them to have ... anything they want! Americans would like that!

It went both ways, however, the "so-called" leftist side of things, became known as that, because the "right" side is always the government, but this is a horrible corruption of the terminology, and it ends up placing all of us in a generic mode that is not reflective of the real situation.

However, if you, or I, stated that we intentionally hid the political thoughts to prevent the government or others fro buffing me, as happened in Portugal, Spain and many other places since, then the whole thing changes ... all of a sudden, Peter Gabriel's lyrics are not that scary, or weird, or off center. And neither are anyone else's!

There always is, some sort of social comment, not all the time, but many times ... however, this opens itself up to ridicule and criticism, since the first thing a comedian will pick on is the mania centered on one thing only! And George Carlin, let us have it, let me tell you ... you found out how hippocritical you/I/we were real quick!



Edited by moshkito - January 30 2016 at 14:16
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Upbeat Tango Monday View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 10 2015
Location: Buenos Aires
Status: Offline
Points: 1189
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2016 at 16:23
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Upbeat Tango Monday Upbeat Tango Monday wrote:

As someone who lived the last twelve years under an oppresive socialist regime I have some things to say. But I want to keep things polite, and if you want a strong government, censorship, theft and loss of individual freedoms, it's your call. 


Just out of curiosity and lack of knowledge about Argentinian politics, is this about Argentina? (Your posting made me read the Wikipedia page on Kirchnerism, but this obviously can't tell me how it feels to live under such a government.)



Ok, Lewian. If you want to know, here are a few tips to completely ruin a country in about a decade Kirchner style:

1. Tax, and tax heavily

2. Make 50% of the country "work" for the state. If a job requieres one guy, put one hundred. They will count towards reducing unemployment (it's a scam, though). The other 50% will have to work hard in order to pay the state employees (and lose 60% of their salary in the process).

3. Open millions of public hospitals and public schools, since people won't oppose. Even if those places are empty, or full of rats and lack equipment, the govt. makes a fortune out of this working with private construction companies owned by themselves . If you want to have private health care, and access to newer technology you have to pay 10x times what you pay in the first world, since EVERYTHING that comes from a foreign country is taxed in a terrible way (and some medicine for cancer patients is impossible to acquire, since you need to buy it individually, and individuals can't buy imports because collectivism)

4.Screw the free market! Ban imports and make a big company sell local products at 4x the international price. Happened here with Lumilagro (thermos). Also, don't forget to reduce their taxes so no local competition can appear. They will send LOTS of money to the govt each month as a "gift"

5.Put politicians in charge of the drug mafia and kill independent drug dealers

6.Buy obsolete trains to the chinese, make it appear as a multi-million dollar bussiness in the papers, pocket the money, and give the chinese your own territory so they can build a tax exempted "space station" (aka. military facilty) with full control of the territory for the next 50 years.

7.Give money to a guevarist guerrilla to act as a parallel police force in the north of the country.

8. Independent artists suck! Give everyone's money to big local bands and they will perform in pro-state concerts. Boys love music, and they will surely get the message. Support the leader! Also, these bands don't need to sell records or tickets anymore. They got money from me, and I didn't even go to those concerts!

9. Individual freedom is crap. Collectivism rules. You like a weird prog rock band? Tough luck, since that doesn't sell here and you can't buy things from abroad, you either adapt or get wrecked! You don't have money for hobbies anyway...

10.Build luxurious hotels in the south. Because if someone is going to get tourist dollars. It's you, the govt.

11. Make deals with Iran and kill a prosecutor who was investigating the death of 86 jews in a car bomb incident at the Argentine Israelite Mutual Association back in 1994, in order to cover the culprits.

Those are a few things the former govt. did. If you give unlimited power to the state....
Two random guys agreed to shake hands. Just Because. They felt like it, you know. It was an agreement of sorts...a random agreement.
Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14955
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 30 2016 at 18:56
Thanks for this. Always good to get an inside view!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.160 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.