Writers' Bloc |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:00 | ||||
Interesting...I have wanted to write fiction and struggled when I set down to it....whenever I attempted long form that is. I could write short stories of anywhere between 2 to 6 pages easily but a novel seemed a fraught affair. There were novels I never completed and some only in a half baked way for the sake of getting rid of the book! :D
There's one finally that I am giving finishing touches to and hopefully can publish, let's see. So what I have learnt from my educative misadventures is that it is better to wait until you actually have a story that feels worth writing about. Forcing it never works. Another thing is wait until you form the protagonist fully in your head. Now, the writer Amit Chaudhari has it that writing novels around characters is so 19th century and why not have a city as the protagonist as the novel. Fair enough, but imo that's too advanced and 19th century is still a good place to start as it gave us so many memorable characters that still live on through numerous TV/movie adaptations. So chart out what kind of a person the protagonist is and what kind of arc his/her life is going to follow, all the ups and downs. As for detailing, each one may have their own methods. I like to leave it a bit loose so there is room to improvise on the spot as I write instead of planning everything. For others, planning every detail may work. I cannot imagine, say, Agatha Christie would have been able to concoct so many mysteries using the same small set of poisons without having extraordinary patience with detail. But if you at least chart out the life or slice of life of the protagonist that you are going to capture in your novel, you at least have a framework to improvise around.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:05 | ||||
I tend to follow this too if I am working on something. Not to avoid being influenced but it can be distracting. You may see a good idea in a book you are reading and want to incorporate it. And then another, and so on, until you lose direction. It's important to stay the course. Another thing: when writing a novel or anything fictional of that length (60000 plus words), writing an hour everyday is indispensable. My previous attempts revolved around writing a lot in the weekend and almost nothing on weekdays. Didn't work. You never get the flow that you do if you write day in day out. Target at least a 1000 words everyday, 10000 a week. Bonus is you also get through the first draft of the novel quickly this way.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:39 | ||||
It depends on what you are writing... I was reading a composer's blog where the writer made this comment that caused me to raise a smile: For that blogger, the ideal song-structure would be:
Of course that advice is the antithesis of Progressive Rock and advice that I would summarily ignore when composing a piece of music, however that's not to say I wouldn't edit-out a section that I felt caused the piece to drag, or add in a second melody, chorus or bridge to add divergent interest. To me a song is finished when it is as long as it needs to be, whether that is 3 minutes, 6½ minutes or 60 minutes. When composing music I spend more time listening back to what I've composed to ensure it keeps my attention than I ever spent composing it and I apply that same approach to writing, I read and re-read each chapter before calling it "finished". In writing, my fiction errs towards "progressive rock" in structure and format, whereas if I am writing a technical paper, users manual or operating procedure I'll strive to make it concise and to the point like a 3 minute pop song. I guess this is why I don't enjoy writing reviews. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 05 2016 at 23:58 | ||||
What is good writing? I'm currently reading Georges Simenon's first Maigret story and in addition to Simenon's clean, direct style, his knowledge of criminology and detection is evident. But his is just one example of many approaches that can pull a reader in.
So seriously, what is good writing, and how is it that simple and linear may be as compelling as layered and complex? |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Kati
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: January 06 2016 at 20:13 | ||||
On a lighter note :) I found this quite interesting in terms of a sales perspective. Not much use here to any of you, however considering you all excel in writing this might be fun for you to watch.
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Man With Hat
Collaborator Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166178 |
Posted: January 07 2016 at 18:18 | ||||
To define good writing I would think you would have to use the most objective method of qualifying 'good'...ie proper grammar/syntax/etc, coherence, knowledge of writing topic (esp for non fiction sources), ability to articulate, correct word choices...things along these lines. Obviously, you can enjoy the results or not. As for compelling...well...that would tap into popularity and mass appeal much more (which I don't think we've have the ability to detect), and probably has some sort of psychological element to it.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20240 |
Posted: January 09 2016 at 15:04 | ||||
Simenon actually used to come in into my great-grandfather's Comissaire office in Liège ( yes, I know, I'm ashamed >> I got cops in my ancestors ) and ask him about criminal cases that were over and dealt with and trialed, so he could find material for his police novels personally I prefer Simenon's non-Maigret books, because they're a lot less formulaic. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 09 2016 at 18:26 | ||||
^ Ah, that makes sense. I figured he must've either been or known detectives in his life.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 01:53 | ||||
With the very sad death of Mr. Bowie, I am reminded of how difficult good lyrics are to write. At least for me they are, and, as more of an instrumentalist, have always been my Achilles heel in music creation. It seems songwriting as a craft, which is to say when words are part & parcel of music composition, is a particular skill that is separate from instrumental expression. What Bob Dylan did was quite a different animal than what Leo Kottke did though they both have a Folk background.
What do our musicians here think about lyric writing? Edited by Atavachron - January 13 2016 at 01:54 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 03:17 | ||||
Gah, you always prefix everything with the adjective "good" and I don't think I'm good enough a writer to recognise good or bad in my own writing . [in '21st Century Goth' Mick Mercer described my first online novel as "...and not necessarily very good, but if you fancy something to read you will find it quite involving" ... at the time I was relieved he used "very" there ]
I don't write much poetry and I've only written ten lyrics in my whole life. I can't say that I found the lyrics particularly difficult to write and I think that is because I wrote them to the music so the meter and rhythm of music dictated the scan of each line and verse (from scanison : the analysis of the metrical structure of a verse). For me it was certainly easier to write a lyric than an iambic pentameter poem for example. I wrote in my online Blog at the time: "As I had never written a lyric before and have only ever written a couple of poems in my entire life, the prospect of adding words to this first song ['Staring Into The Sun'] and any subsequent songs was, needless to say, daunting. However, fired-up by my enthusiasm for the project and encouraged by the music composed thus far, the words came very easily. After a small amount of editing to remove 'night & light' clichés, I soon had enough words for the CD." As to whether the results were good or not is for others to judge, I liked the finished songs even though in the end I didn't use them on the album they were intended for. |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 06:09 | ||||
I write some poetry on occasion, and tried my hands at lyrics that still have to be put to music. The hard thing is to get a message across without going into cliches (although Fish once found a nice way around that in a song called Cliche), or make it corny.
Writing lyrics to existing music has the same issue from my point of view, although Dean is right in saying that it is easier technically to write lyrics to music than vice versa.
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:20 | ||||
Sometimes 'good' is the 'best' phase I can think of. But you raise a, you'll forgive me, "good" point. Matching words to music is hard but matching music to words is almost impossible unless one does a sort of freeform composition. But I didn't realize that until I tried putting music to lyrics or poetry that already exist. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:21 | ||||
Yep, a lot harder than one would think. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Man With Hat
Collaborator Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166178 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:28 | ||||
I guess I just view lyrics as a form of poetry...just as easy/difficult as that would be, in terms of the actual words. The meter and all that extra stuff to sync with the music is more of a musical issue in my mind. The best stuff I find comes from just stepping back and letting the muse take over (much like any art form to me). That said, I usually prefer to do instrumental music. (Or just various vocal utterances if more is required by the muse) I think I'd like it more if I could write words in other languages.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:33 | ||||
^ Well yes, lyrics are just another wordform, but when I would actually try to match it all, it wasn't just the rhythmic metres that gave trouble, it was the melodies and, as Angie points out, the theme or imagery of the words. Not so easy unless one is a natural songsmith like McCartney or Stevie Wonder.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:53 | ||||
Which is sometimes why some of the best lyricists are the ones that have loose melodies/rhythms or simple chord progressions. Bob Dylan's three chord progression are like a blank canvas on which he can paint whatever he wants. He doesn't have to compromise as much. Meanwhile, some prog artists' disappointing lyrics may have to do with the limits imposed by their music. There are more compromises that have to be made. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 13 2016 at 21:46 | ||||
Great point. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: January 14 2016 at 00:51 | ||||
The pump don't work because the vandals took the handle.
Discuss |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Online Points: 65261 |
Posted: January 14 2016 at 01:13 | ||||
^ I had to look up those piece of tripe lyrics.
Oh, Bob, c'mon now. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 06 2012 Location: here Status: Offline Points: 8856 |
Posted: January 14 2016 at 02:33 | ||||
It definitely invites some interesting Freudian readings.
Edited by Polymorphia - January 14 2016 at 02:33 |
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