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Topic ClosedJohn Tout of Renaissance under appreciated?
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kenethlevine View Drop Down
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 09:10
I'll add Let it Grow to the list of songs that really showcase Annie's voice and Tout's piano.
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 09:14
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Tout did nothing that Hawken did before him, IMHO

Just like the "classic Renaissance" didn't do anything that the "Ex-Yarbirds Renaissance" didn't



The Renaissance Mach 1 was more baroque and the Renaissance Mach 2 more romantic.
I like both eras and I think both bands did a good job of distinguishing themselves, even when operating at the same time in 1977-1978.  Hugues, you should check out Renaissant, an album by Terence Sullivan and family put out in the early 2000's.  It reminds me more of Illusion than Renaissance, especially the Hawken like piano rolls that may have been done by Tout.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 23:08
Let It Grow is a fine showcase for the wonderful folk pop/rock songwriter Dunford could have been before they went all grand symphonic.   Tout too plays beautifully on that track but technically speaking I find Captive Heart more interesting.  Wonderful use of dynamics in that first minute of piano and good use of the left and right hands both in a way that highlights both the bass and soprano timbre of the instrument.  Likewise, Annie was still kind of raw on Let it Grow (there is a nice live version, I think, on Turn of the Seasons but that's bootleg territory!!!) and much more assured on Captive Heart, again utilising dynamics as well as a bit of overriding the backbeat, not trying to be metronomic about the beat.  Confidence after recording four albums plus plenty of days on the road.

Edited by rogerthat - January 09 2016 at 09:00
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Points: 3247 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2016 at 02:38
I remember getting Camera, Camera when it first came out and couldn't believe how bad it was, then checking out the record liner notes and realising that John Tout was no longer in the band. It was at that point that I appreciated the influence that John Tout had on the band.
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2016 at 08:43
They were trying to change with the times.  I think it's actually a pretty good album with some great melodies and some of the old mixed in with the new, but the 1980s keyboards really hurt.  
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2016 at 09:21
Originally posted by iluvmarillion iluvmarillion wrote:

I remember getting Camera, Camera when it first came out and couldn't believe how bad it was, then checking out the record liner notes and realising that John Tout was no longer in the band. It was at that point that I appreciated the influence that John Tout had on the band.

AZD wasn't much better but he was probably already being sidelined by then.  There's nothing on the record but the evolution of the band during that phase suggests as much.
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Points: 470 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2017 at 13:16
Got some Renaissance on now and I a search for John Tout brought me here. I always found him a wonderful player, but questioned his compositional abilities. He admittedly doesn't have many writing credits on the albums but with that said - I think he and Camp probably did more than they were actually given credit for. I really wish he stayed with the band into the 80s - by A Song For All Seasons he was really dabbling with synthesizers and otherwise more keyboard instruments than just piano, harpsichord, and Hammond. Though he did use synths as early as Scheherazade. 

Camera Camera is an enjoyable album but for all the great synth work there is from the early 80s I can't believe how bad the pallet is on that album. Tout was able to use the CS80 on Azure d'Or to really good effect and I think his approach (with Terry Sullivan) could have made the band have some really, really good prog pop albums instead of the mixed bags we got instead that only serious fans have heard.


Edited by fudgenuts64 - April 30 2017 at 13:17
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Points: 30855 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2017 at 13:18
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2017 at 15:01
Tout's piano and Annie's voice are 80% of Renaissance greatness.

Really deserves more credit. 
            
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2017 at 21:49
as our dear Ivan notes.. he gets plenty of credit...

Now if one wants to talk underrated underappreciated we'll talk Richard Tandy.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2017 at 02:30
Originally posted by fudgenuts64 fudgenuts64 wrote:

Got some Renaissance on now and I a search for John Tout brought me here. I always found him a wonderful player, but questioned his compositional abilities. He admittedly doesn't have many writing credits on the albums but with that said - I think he and Camp probably did more than they were actually given credit for. I really wish he stayed with the band into the 80s - by A Song For All Seasons he was really dabbling with synthesizers and otherwise more keyboard instruments than just piano, harpsichord, and Hammond. Though he did use synths as early as Scheherazade. 

Camera Camera is an enjoyable album but for all the great synth work there is from the early 80s I can't believe how bad the pallet is on that album. Tout was able to use the CS80 on Azure d'Or to really good effect and I think his approach (with Terry Sullivan) could have made the band have some really, really good prog pop albums instead of the mixed bags we got instead that only serious fans have heard.

Well, at the very least, he may have stopped the band from going overly synth pop.  But maybe it was in trying to do so that he got dropped from the line up or left the band, however one puts it. I posted an interview in the other thread about how frustrated Sullivan really had been by the end of the 70s. With the line up intact, they may have gently slid into oblivion, overtaken by 80s trends.  Without them, they made an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to embrace these trends.  The problem at the end of the day was in thinking in terms of 'another Northern Lights' instead of looking for those new developments from the 80s that may have suited them better.  Say something more atmospheric like Lis Frazer's work.  You can kind of hear it on the Nevada version of In the Bleak Midwinter so, just speculating, maybe Dunford wanted that but Camp didn't.  And they went with Camp.


Edited by rogerthat - May 01 2017 at 02:32
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2017 at 03:55
Not by me. His intro to Can You Understand is one of the finest moments in prog.
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2017 at 07:44
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Not by me. His intro to Can You Understand is one of the finest moments in prog.

so many great moments.  That one is up there, but so is his intro to Trip to the Fair
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2017 at 07:52
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by fudgenuts64 fudgenuts64 wrote:

Got some Renaissance on now and I a search for John Tout brought me here. I always found him a wonderful player, but questioned his compositional abilities. He admittedly doesn't have many writing credits on the albums but with that said - I think he and Camp probably did more than they were actually given credit for. I really wish he stayed with the band into the 80s - by A Song For All Seasons he was really dabbling with synthesizers and otherwise more keyboard instruments than just piano, harpsichord, and Hammond. Though he did use synths as early as Scheherazade. 

Camera Camera is an enjoyable album but for all the great synth work there is from the early 80s I can't believe how bad the pallet is on that album. Tout was able to use the CS80 on Azure d'Or to really good effect and I think his approach (with Terry Sullivan) could have made the band have some really, really good prog pop albums instead of the mixed bags we got instead that only serious fans have heard.

Well, at the very least, he may have stopped the band from going overly synth pop.  But maybe it was in trying to do so that he got dropped from the line up or left the band, however one puts it. I posted an interview in the other thread about how frustrated Sullivan really had been by the end of the 70s. With the line up intact, they may have gently slid into oblivion, overtaken by 80s trends.  Without them, they made an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to embrace these trends.  The problem at the end of the day was in thinking in terms of 'another Northern Lights' instead of looking for those new developments from the 80s that may have suited them better.  Say something more atmospheric like Lis Frazer's work.  You can kind of hear it on the Nevada version of In the Bleak Midwinter so, just speculating, maybe Dunford wanted that but Camp didn't.  And they went with Camp.

I am getting so frustrated with this bot stuff.  It's bad enough that it prompts me to say I am a real person, but sometimes I get a permissions violation after and I lose what I wrote, which is what just happened.

I admit they kept trying for another Northern Lights, with Bonjour Swansong being the only one I really liked, but they did try for a newer sound too, like on the title cut of Camera Camera (which I liked) and Fairies and Jigsaw (which I didn't).  Even Running away from you could have been a hit.  Apart from the godawful keyboard sounds, I think you can chalk it up to poor promotion and bad luck.
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Points: 20617 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2017 at 13:15
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Not by me. His intro to Can You Understand is one of the finest moments in prog.

so many great moments.  That one is up there, but so is his intro to Trip to the Fair
I think we could have endless debates over Renaissance being being a sum greater than it's parts as Annie and John Tout were so awesome, but I feel that it's the band's chemistry which makes so much of their music so enjoyable to me, as opposed to the showcases from individual members. (Remember Camp's 5 minute bass solo? Tee-hee.)

Edited by SteveG - May 01 2017 at 13:15
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2017 at 18:34
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:


I am getting so frustrated with this bot stuff.  It's bad enough that it prompts me to say I am a real person, but sometimes I get a permissions violation after and I lose what I wrote, which is what just happened.

I admit they kept trying for another Northern Lights, with Bonjour Swansong being the only one I really liked, but they did try for a newer sound too, like on the title cut of Camera Camera (which I liked) and Fairies and Jigsaw (which I didn't).  Even Running away from you could have been a hit.  Apart from the godawful keyboard sounds, I think you can chalk it up to poor promotion and bad luck.

Yeah, I posted something on the Politics thread which disappeared and I didn't bother trying again.  Now as for poor promotion, really, it chased them all through their career, just that it got worse from AZD onwards. Once Annie said in an interview that certain influential persons in the industry had offered to make her a huge star in exchange for you-know-what and she refused point blank.  Who knows, maybe those people had a hand in trying to pull down Renaissance any chance they got (and hence the lyrics of Vultures Fly High). I mean, I don't like the keyboards on the title cut of Camera Camera but I don't understand why it didn't become a hit even in that era because it was very catchy and had a kind of ironic flavour that was unusual for them.
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2017 at 13:11
I'm going to copy and paste to the Renaissance Zone which is where a lot of the recent posts belong
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2017 at 13:16
hmm I can't find the Renaissance zone anymore.  What happened to it???? Thumbs Down
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Points: 37525 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2017 at 18:44
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

hmm I can't find the Renaissance zone anymore.  What happened to it???? Thumbs Down


Nothing happened to it that I can see. I found it quickly with a topic search without being logged in, so no possible special privileges on my end, and manually by scrolling down the topics until page 2 of this forum. Not sure why it was not showing up for you. Weird.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=105220

Edited by Logan - May 02 2017 at 18:45
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Points: 9105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2017 at 15:28
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

hmm I can't find the Renaissance zone anymore.  What happened to it???? Thumbs Down


Nothing happened to it that I can see. I found it quickly with a topic search without being logged in, so no possible special privileges on my end, and manually by scrolling down the topics until page 2 of this forum. Not sure why it was not showing up for you. Weird.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=105220

Thanks!

It's very strange, but I admit I only looked for it the one time.  I even did simple searches on the last few pages of this topic header, as well as more complicated ones.  It's hardly a controversial thread even though some of us...ahem...might consider the band to have been the equal of the prog giants
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