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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:00
Interesting...I have wanted to write fiction and struggled when I set down to it....whenever I attempted long form that is.  I could write short stories of anywhere between 2 to 6 pages easily but a novel seemed a fraught affair.  There were novels I never completed and some only in a half baked way for the sake of getting rid of the book! :D  

There's one finally that I am giving finishing touches to and hopefully can publish, let's see.  So what I have learnt from my educative misadventures is that it is better to wait until you actually have a story that feels worth writing about.  Forcing it never works.  Another thing is wait until you form the protagonist fully in your head.  Now, the writer Amit Chaudhari has it that writing novels around characters is so 19th century and why not have a city as the protagonist as the novel.  Fair enough, but imo that's too advanced and 19th century is still a good place to start as it gave us so many memorable characters that still live on through numerous TV/movie adaptations.  So chart out what kind of a person the protagonist is and what kind of arc his/her life is going to follow, all the ups and downs.  

As for detailing, each one may have their own methods.  I like to leave it a bit loose so there is room to improvise on the spot as I write instead of planning everything.  For others, planning every detail may work.  I cannot imagine, say, Agatha Christie would have been able to concoct so many mysteries using the same small set of poisons without having extraordinary patience with detail.  But if you at least chart out the life or slice of life of the protagonist that you are going to capture in your novel, you at least have a framework to improvise around.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:05
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Edit: Also, maybe this is total stupidity, but I had this idea of not reading any other fiction when attempting to write. I know this may be antithetical to the standard of "read read read, write, read read read" but I kind of wanted to craft something as much my own as possible, have a "sterile" process, untainted by outside influences. 
Within realistic limitsLOL of course there's the years of stuff in my brain already and natural life influences. 

I tend to follow this too if I am working on something.  Not to avoid being influenced but it can be distracting.  You may see a good idea in a book you are reading and want to incorporate it.  And then another, and so on, until you lose direction.  It's important to stay the course.  

Another thing:  when writing a novel or anything fictional of that length (60000 plus words), writing an hour everyday is indispensable.  My previous attempts revolved around writing a lot in the weekend and almost nothing on weekdays.  Didn't work.  You never get the flow that you do if you write day in day out.  Target at least a 1000 words everyday, 10000 a week.  Bonus is you also get through the first draft of the novel quickly this way.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2015 at 04:39
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I have found editing to be an integral part of finished work;  when writing my book, it was when I'd change or, more often, remove whole sentences or paragraphs that the manuscript would tighten-up and come together, focusing the text, staying on topic and eliminating extraneous material.  

On the other hand, during the initial act of writing I do enjoy letting go and seeing what happens.  

How much do you value editing?--  especially the serious kind where you remove or alter whole passages that simply don't work or don't relate to the thesis?
Because everything I've written so far has been published on the internet in serial form pretty much as soon as I've finished writing each episode I don't have the luxury of being able to go back to older chapters to edit and revise them so all my editing is done within the confines of the current chapter. Mostly it's the normal stuff like spelling and grammar corrections, then it's fixing plot-holes, ensuring the characters have remained in character, checking continuity with previous scenes and the like. This is where I find 'story boarding' the entire story at the beginning to be of most use, so if I find that I've wandered off-script I can then decide whether the new direction is a keeper and needs to be worked into the story-line, or is extraneous to the plot and needs to be removed. Therefore culling of extraneous material is the next thing, however, if I really like the content of that and don't want to lose it I may try and work it into a later chapter or simply add it as a footnote¹ or addendum, which I guess comes under the next category of 'failure to edit'. 

My editing failings are (and I suspect this happens with a lot of self-editors), the reluctance to remove any material; the addition of extra material; and (more often) the complete rewrite of whole chunks of text during the editing stage. I think this is the major difference between a writer who has a publisher and editor working for them and someone who does all of that themselves. I touched on this in my 2-star rated 'Please Self-Release Me' self-release blog - it's having the discipline to be honest with yourself over the quality of what you are producing. You frequently hear people say "Oh, I'm my harshest critic", but when that self-deprecation isn't false modesty it is often used as an excuse for not judiciously editing stuff they know doesn't pass muster.

¹I do like sparse use of footnotes in novels.

I get what you mean about being married to a good bit of writing even if it's not fitting the rest of the piece, I had to become much more disciplined about removal.   One does become attached;  your words are like children.

But the level of improvement I found through elimination of passages not directly pertinent to the thesis was a revelation.   It wasn't just about being a disciplined editor, the whole piece would suddenly become much cleaner and readable.   And when finished, if I couldn't find a place for the extra material I'd removed, I left it out.   And am I glad I can do that now without much regret.
It depends on what you are writing...

I was reading a composer's blog where the writer made this comment that caused me to raise a smile:

Quote I know a very talented pianist who writes incredible melodies, but his songs are way too long. It drives me crazy, because if he'd just simplify his arrangements, his CD would be a thing of beauty. I won't name him, of course, but just look at this song arrangement:
    • A) Melody (Intro)
    • A) Melody (Repeated)
    • B) Chorus (simple version)
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody
    • B) Chorus (simple version)
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody
    • D) Change Up
    • B) Chorus (complex version)
    • C) Bridge (with embellishment)
    • D) Change Up (with much embellishment, turns into a vamp)
    • B) Chorus (with much embellishment)
    • A) Melody
    • B) Chorus (simple version)
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody (to end)

The song runs at six and a half minutes. While the song has one of the most beautiful melodies I've ever heard, the artist plays it into the ground. By the time you're five minutes into the song, you're really wishing it was over.

Keep it simple.
For that blogger, the ideal song-structure would be:
Quote  Here's the pattern:
    • A) Melody established (Intro)
    • B) Chorus
    • C) Bridge
    • A) Melody (Octave lower with embellishment)
    • B) Chorus
    • C) Bridge
    • D) Change Up
    • B) Chorus to End
and there you have a 3 minute song. Notice how simple the structure is?

Of course that advice is the antithesis of Progressive Rock and advice that I would summarily ignore when composing a piece of music, however that's not to say I wouldn't edit-out a section that I felt caused the piece to drag, or add in a second melody, chorus or bridge to add divergent interest. To me a song is finished when it is as long as it needs to be, whether that is 3 minutes, 6½ minutes or 60 minutes. 

When composing music I spend more time listening back to what I've composed to ensure it keeps my attention than I ever spent composing it and I apply that same approach to writing, I read and re-read each chapter before calling it "finished".

In writing, my fiction errs towards "progressive rock" in structure and format, whereas if I am writing a technical paper, users manual or operating procedure I'll strive to make it concise and to the point like a 3 minute pop song. I guess this is why I don't enjoy writing reviews.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 23:58
What is good writing?   I'm currently reading Georges Simenon's first Maigret story and in addition to Simenon's clean, direct style, his knowledge of criminology and detection is evident.   But his is just one example of many approaches that can pull a reader in.

So seriously, what is good writing, and how is it that simple and linear may be as compelling as layered and complex?


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 20:13
On a lighter note :) I found this quite interesting in terms of a sales perspective.
Not much use here to any of you, however considering you all excel in writing this might be fun for you to watch.  Big smileBig smile
 
N.B. I  am not posting this for any political purpose. 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 18:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

What is good writing?   I'm currently reading Georges Simenon's first Maigret story and in addition to Simenon's clean, direct style, his knowledge of criminology and detection is evident.   But his is just one example of many approaches that can pull a reader in.

So seriously, what is good writing, and how is it that simple and linear may be as compelling as layered and complex?



To define good writing I would think you would have to use the most objective method of qualifying 'good'...ie proper grammar/syntax/etc, coherence, knowledge of writing topic (esp for non fiction sources), ability to articulate, correct word choices...things along these lines. Obviously, you can enjoy the results or not. As for compelling...well...that would tap into popularity and mass appeal much more (which I don't think we've have the ability to detect), and probably has some sort of psychological element to it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 15:04
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

What is good writing?   I'm currently reading Georges Simenon's first Maigret story and in addition to Simenon's clean, direct style, his knowledge of criminology and detection is evident.   But his is just one example of many approaches that can pull a reader in.

So seriously, what is good writing, and how is it that simple and linear may be as compelling as layered and complex?




Simenon actually used to come in into my great-grandfather's Comissaire office in Liège ( yes, I know, I'm ashamed >> I got cops in my ancestors EmbarrassedLOL) and ask him about criminal cases that were over  and dealt with and trialed, so he could find material for his police novels


personally I prefer Simenon's non-Maigret books, because they're a lot less formulaic.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 18:26
^ Ah, that makes sense.  I figured he must've either been or known detectives in his life.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 01:53
With the very sad death of Mr. Bowie, I am reminded of how difficult good lyrics are to write.   At least for me they are, and, as more of an instrumentalist, have always been my Achilles heel in music creation.   It seems songwriting as a craft, which is to say when words are part & parcel of music composition, is a particular skill that is separate from instrumental expression.   What Bob Dylan did was quite a different animal than what Leo Kottke did though they both have a Folk background.
 
What do our musicians here think about lyric writing?




Edited by Atavachron - January 13 2016 at 01:54
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 03:17
Gah, you always prefix everything with the adjective "good" and I don't think I'm good enough a writer to recognise good or bad in my own writing Ouch. [in '21st Century Goth' Mick Mercer described my first online novel as "...and not necessarily very good, but if you fancy something to read you will find it quite involving" ... at the time I was relieved he used "very" there LOL]

I don't write much poetry and I've only written ten lyrics in my whole life. I can't say that I found the lyrics particularly difficult to write and I think that is because I wrote them to the music so the meter and rhythm of music dictated the scan of each line and verse (from scanison : the analysis of the metrical structure of a verse). For me it was certainly easier to write a lyric than an iambic pentameter poem for example. I wrote in my online Blog at the time: "As I had never written a lyric before and have only ever written a couple of poems in my entire life, the prospect of adding words to this first song ['Staring Into The Sun'] and any subsequent songs was, needless to say, daunting. However, fired-up by my enthusiasm for the project and encouraged by the music composed thus far, the words came very easily. After a small amount of editing to remove 'night & light' clichés, I soon had enough words for the CD."

As to whether the results were good or not is for others to judge, I liked the finished songs even though in the end I didn't use them on the album they were intended for.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 06:09
I write some poetry on occasion, and tried my hands at lyrics that still have to be put to music. The hard thing is to get a message across without going into cliches (although Fish once found a nice way around that in a song called Cliche), or make it corny.
Writing lyrics to existing music has the same issue from my point of view, although Dean is right in saying that it is easier technically to write lyrics to music than vice versa.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Gah, you always prefix everything with the adjective "good" and I don't think I'm good enough a writer to recognise good or bad in my own writing Ouch. [in '21st Century Goth' Mick Mercer described my first online novel as "...and not necessarily very good, but if you fancy something to read you will find it quite involving" ... at the time I was relieved he used "very" there LOL]

I don't write much poetry and I've only written ten lyrics in my whole life. I can't say that I found the lyrics particularly difficult to write and I think that is because I wrote them to the music so the meter and rhythm of music dictated the scan of each line and verse (from scanison : the analysis of the metrical structure of a verse). For me it was certainly easier to write a lyric than an iambic pentameter poem for example. I wrote in my online Blog at the time: "As I had never written a lyric before and have only ever written a couple of poems in my entire life, the prospect of adding words to this first song ['Staring Into The Sun'] and any subsequent songs was, needless to say, daunting. However, fired-up by my enthusiasm for the project and encouraged by the music composed thus far, the words came very easily. After a small amount of editing to remove 'night & light' clichés, I soon had enough words for the CD."

As to whether the results were good or not is for others to judge, I liked the finished songs even though in the end I didn't use them on the album they were intended for.

Sometimes 'good' is the 'best' phase I can think of.  

But you raise a, you'll forgive me, "good" point.   Matching words to music is hard but matching music to words
is almost impossible unless one does a sort of freeform composition.   But I didn't realize that until I tried putting music to lyrics or poetry that already exist.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:21
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

I write some poetry on occasion, and tried my hands at lyrics that still have to be put to music. The hard thing is to get a message across without going into cliches (although Fish once found a nice way around that in a song called Cliche), or make it corny.
Writing lyrics to existing music has the same issue from my point of view, although Dean is right in saying that it is easier technically to write lyrics to music than vice versa.

Yep, a lot harder than one would think.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:28
I guess I just view lyrics as a form of poetry...just as easy/difficult as that would be, in terms of the actual words. The meter and all that extra stuff to sync with the music is more of a musical issue in my mind. The best stuff I find comes from just stepping back and letting the muse take over (much like any art form to me).

That said, I usually prefer to do instrumental music. (Or just various vocal utterances if more is required by the muse) I think I'd like it more if I could write words in other languages.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:33
^ Well yes, lyrics are just another wordform, but when I would actually try to match it all, it wasn't just the rhythmic metres that gave trouble, it was the melodies and, as Angie points out, the theme or imagery of the words.   Not so easy unless one is a natural songsmith like McCartney or Stevie Wonder.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 18:53
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

With the very sad death of Mr. Bowie, I am reminded of how difficult good lyrics are to write.   At least for me they are, and, as more of an instrumentalist, have always been my Achilles heel in music creation.   It seems songwriting as a craft, which is to say when words are part & parcel of music composition, is a particular skill that is separate from instrumental expression.   What Bob Dylan did was quite a different animal than what Leo Kottke did though they both have a Folk background.
 
What do our musicians here think about lyric writing?


Lyrics are difficult, namely because there is a great deal of compromise going on. I can write a somewhat satisfactory free verse poem, not easily, but without an unusual amount of trouble. However, when restricted to a certain meter, a certain set of sounds that sound good over a certain section, working with the overall mood of the song as well as singular moments, having to condense or expand information, I often find myself flailing about for a while. I'll write down all my ideas whether they're just words that sound good, images that work, straightforward emotional statements, or stream of consciousness gibberish I write while listening to a demo recording for a song, and almost always I get to double digits in terms of number of drafts. The final draft is like the Constitution of the song– compromising until the each quality is satisfied. The actual topic of the song is discovered through that process for me.

Which is sometimes why some of the best lyricists are the ones that have loose melodies/rhythms or simple chord progressions. Bob Dylan's three chord progression are like a blank canvas on which he can paint whatever he wants. He doesn't have to compromise as much. Meanwhile, some prog artists' disappointing lyrics may have to do with the limits imposed by their music. There are more compromises that have to be made.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2016 at 21:46
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Which is sometimes why some of the best lyricists are the ones that have loose melodies/rhythms or simple chord progressions. Bob Dylan's three chord progression are like a blank canvas on which he can paint whatever he wants. He doesn't have to compromise as much. Meanwhile, some prog artists' disappointing lyrics may have to do with the limits imposed by their music. There are more compromises that have to be made.

Great point.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2016 at 00:51
The pump don't work because the vandals took the handle.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2016 at 01:13
^ I had to look up those piece of tripe lyrics.  

Oh, Bob, c'mon now.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2016 at 02:33
It definitely invites some interesting Freudian readings. Wink

Edited by Polymorphia - January 14 2016 at 02:33
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