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RyanElliott View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Streaming!
    Posted: January 05 2016 at 10:57
I am very curious to throw this discussion out there, as I think it is one of the biggest debates of the last 12 months, but what are the progressive communities' general views on streaming and artists? 

Is there too much sense of self-entitlement amongst musicians trying to make a living as an artist due to the internet? 

Or are musicians getting a really bad deal? 

Two of my favourite music journalists have completely polarised views on this, both fascinating:


and


I've got to say, I agree with Lefsetz but what do you think? 



Edited by RyanElliott - January 05 2016 at 10:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 11:16
As far as I am concerned, this is a very good time for this debate. The other night, I reread the exceptional interview that Jim Garten did with Martin Orford on this site. I would,thoroughly recommend that people read it again, because it is absolutely one of the finest I have ever read anywhere.

To summarise, Martin retired from the music business owing to the fact that he objected to the fact that he could no longer have a sustainable business model, this, according to him, owing to a combination of illegal downloads, and a pittance paid to artists from legal streaming sites. I might add here, btw, that Martin left IQ for differences over the writing process, not the Internet issue. I also read a later interview with Nick Barrett of Pendragon, another artist I greatly admire, in which he made similar points, and backed Martin to the hilt. Forum members would also note the supporting comments by Rachel (Wilcey), who, I believe, met Nick via an interview she did with him for PA.

My view is this. I have never downloaded illegally, because I believe it is tantamount to stealing. An artist deserves to get paid for the work produced, and the nature of the acts we listen to, by and large, do not have that large an audience in the first place.

Streaming, however, is a different matter and beast altogether. For a start, sites such as Spotify, iTunes, emusic, and the rest, are perfectly legal. Indeed, I have started to subscribe to iTunes cloud streaming service myself recently, this to have access to a large library on the move (I travel a lot with work), and also to "try before I buy". A good recent example of this is the new Karnataka album, which I purchased after listening to it first on this medium.

I am quite old fashioned, in that I like to have a physical product. There are certain acts, Marillion, Pendragon, Hackett, IQ, Edison's Children, to name but a few, where I will buy any new release, usually pre ordering. This is because I am a fan, and a long term one, at that.

However, I do find the streaming sites to be very good for listening before I spend money, and I take comfort that they do, at least, pay something over to the artist (any "inadequacies", or "unfairness" in these models are not my doing, and I no longer feel much like trying to change the world after years of trying to do so in the Trade Union movement, and not getting particularly far).

The Internet is a fact of life. It ain't going anywhere. Successful acts have harnessed it, and turned it to their advantage. Marillion are a very good example of this. It is right and propert that sites such as this discourage, actively, illegal activity where music downloading is concerned. However, to conclude, I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with people, consumers, legally streaming.

Nice thread, Ryan, which I hope can be an interesting, useful, and positive debate on the site
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 11:51
What is the deal with music being provided on streaming services?  Aren't the streaming services required to get the permission of the artist, its' managers, or its' label to include the artists' music as part of their streaming service?  If yes, then it is hard for me to feel sorry for the artist for agreeing to provide their product for such poor terms.  The artist can choose to forego the exposure that they might receive on the streaming services by not providing their music to them.

On the other hand, if the streaming services are "pirating" their music and getting around the illegal nature of this by paying the artist a pittance, then I think that there is a problem. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 11:51

Pretty much what lazland said.  I want my hard copy but streaming is a great way to try something before I buy.  Right now I only have two albums in my collection that were download only.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 12:15
An interesting follow up article by Prasad on an alternative business model for streaming that would benefit the musicians more.  Parts of it I kind of like, but not so sure in the long run, it would need tweaking.

 https://medium.com/@Innerviews/a-fair-music-streaming-model-is-possible-453d4a9b34c2#.qnukrlbb9


I really don't have any objections to streaming services as long it follows what Lazland mentioned, the only one I subscribe to is the XM/Sirius satellite radio (radio and internet).  I have discovered new bands that way and went on to purchase albums by them as a result.

I always thought it was a double edged sword to artists with streaming services, the musicians can get exposure to their work but not get any substantial gain financially from it (although I do not have any knowledge of what they do or do not get, but can't imagine much).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 12:23
Streaming is perfect for what it provides: occasional access, similar to radio, or to check out something you want to listen to before buying it. With no physical record store around, this is the best alternative to having a listen before buying like I did years ago at the local store. If I like something, I will buy the CD (or even the vinyl) anyway. 
If artists are underpaid, maybe they should behaving more like business men (which they are, from the moment they want to live off their music) and start negotiating with the streaming services, instead of wining in the press. A good example of one who has a (relatively successful) different approach to that is Dave Brons - who recently toured with GB3 (with Dave Bainbridge of Iona and Paul Bieiatowicz of the Carl Palmer band). Check out his blog on http://www.davebrons.com. He can pay his mortgage and living off what he makes with his music, and even managed to free up enough money to donate the proceeds of his november and december sales to charity in 2015.

And yes, I know some of the above is put very black-and-white. Business is business, and business is not about making compromises up front.


Edited by Angelo - January 05 2016 at 12:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 12:50

Hi,

Anyone not looking at the history of music, will die regretting anything that happens to it.

At one time, music was only known by word of mouth and your friend hummed a bit of it. Later some of it became local bar songs, or theater songs. Later something else ... and later still ... something else ... and so far of these 2K plus years, no one charged anything as far as we know and understand, and it was only on the Shakespeare days that we learned that there were some "tickets" that had prices on them.

That means, that no one got paid for nothing, but, as has been suggested in many movies, they were thrown food, and money and whatever else, and later they collected it for themselves?

What is really difficult is that the "business" side of the music world has gotten so out of control in stealing, that streaming is considered a steal, specially with so many services that are not paying the artists what they deserve, and instead are stealing the 90% of the money for it ... and no one is doing audits of these folks to find out how much they are actually streaming ... if they are not raking in as much as we think, I have no issues with the artists not getting a whole lot, and I can not suggest that there are more streaming folks out there, that would suggest that musicians are being robbed of millions and millions, when in essence the very folks saying that have been the biggest robbers of all time! And they are the ones ruining the system.

I, honestly, do not feel that Martin has a whole lot to complain about, since he is one of the few folks that got lucky ... it feels like the Beatles complaining about the extra millions they did not get.

There is another side.

I grew up in the early days of bootlegs, when the record companies did not think that rick music had any value whatsoever, and it wasn't until they saw that many people at Woodstock that the business model changed ... even Mr. Graham Fillmore said it ... Woodstock killed the music ... and the wrong people became in charge of it. At that time, there were many bands that allowed the bootlegs, and the 2 most famous have never worried about it, and they are 2 of the richest folks out there when it comes to music and self ... Bob Dylan and The Grateful Dead.

They say that every coin has two sides. I, like LAZ, do not stream a whole lot, and do not visit many of those websites, and I already avoid the tube that so many list here, because you know that some artists are not happy with it. However, many artists are extremely happy with it and have gotten a lot of interest and sales because of it ... so what is good for one, is also good for the other.

I agree that streaming needs a face lift, but I do not want to see it in the hands of a music company that decides the top ten and you think that those are the only good albums out there ... or do what Virgin did way back when ... start their own top ten, and lie to people, and then all of a sudden, they are selling like crazy ... nothing like a good lie!

The main hypocrisy for me, is that Mr. Flying Balls, owes a lot of people a lot of money and three of the most famous ones were Mike Oldfield, Tangerine Dream and Gong ... and you and I know that others were also ripped off, but he is now a Lord (or some sheep dip like it) and everyone thinks he's this and that, and in essence, he was a thief ... and I do not wish to associate many of these websites with someone like him ... a god of thieves that we even worship and fly his airline!

I do think that there has to be some accountability ... but are you going to spend 24 hours auditing the 24 feeds that Joe Schmoe has and which songs were played (and not in its entirety!!!!!!) and then which songs were downloaded? That would be two different financial situations.

I do not have an answer ... but I will tell you one thing. I have no issues using the tube or some fo these websites to gain my fame, and one day, I pull everything to my own website and close down the distribution of any other music to other sites ... and now, someone is playing with their livelihood for touching your music, see? ... but you better be ready for some fan backlash, upset that you took away their fun, and now they are not going to buy your next album, or bother with your upcoming concert ... it's a two edged sword that will hurt you regardless.

Martin, and many others, were lucky and made a lot in their lives. They should really be more thankful of their work and what they received from it. I really have no qualms with his comments, but find the whole thing similar to the greed that so many bands have shown over the years ... and my comment is ... what about the music? Is it really important? Or you really don't care and just want the money?

I have enough to live on ... do I really need/want a lot more that I should have that Mr. Flying Balloon stole from me? NO. He can have it ... I don't need his balloons or airplanes and don't want them.

I just want to live and love the art! I could use the money, but don't need it!

Now, tell me honestly ... who do you trust more?

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 13:04
I use Spotify quite a lot and have discovered a lot of new prog acts from it. I know that the artists don't get much money from streaming but in many cases I have bought CDs from the acts as I still prefer to have a physical copy of an album I really like.
I also listen to albums I already own on CD, because I work from home 2 days a week and have Spotify on the laptop all day. In these cases, although it's not a lot, the artists are getting money they wouldn't be getting if I just played the CDs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 14:11
I listen for free on progstreaming.com or bandcamp.   I listen to the streams and I buy the albums I like.  I bought 17/19 of 2015 progressive rock releases in this manner.  (I preordered Steven Wilson and Leporous) 

 Then I use the Progarchive Collaborators Year End List of Prog to backfill album releases I missed,  because they weren't on the progstreaming site.  

I'm old fashion.  I never download anything.   I've never used ITunes, Spotifly, or the others.      


Edited by omphaloskepsis - January 05 2016 at 14:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 14:59
Exactly what Steve (lazland) said......I don't use the internet streaming sites like those mentioned. I do use the old Zune Marketplace, I think now called GrooveMusic by Microsoft. Been a subscriber since 2006 and have paid a monthly subscription since. That is where I listen to music and use it to decide if I want to own the physical copy, if not I am fine as I am paying a monthly fee to listen as much as I want.
It's not up to me how much the artist gets, they need to make that decision themselves before signing on the dotted line with these services, if they don't like the return then they can pull their catalog off, recently like Prince has done.
On the other hand you have the Fab Four best boy band in the world, Beatles Dead, who have just made their catalog available....Since this came out about a month ago, on GrooveMusic they are now the top downloaded/purchased/listened to rock artist. 

Somehow or another you should buy/pay for your music....if not it's stealing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 15:23
Not that I am complaining, because I enjoy listening to albums on Spotify or Amazon Prime, but it seems odd to me that bands make their entire album available for streaming.  I can see making their "Radio hits" available for streaming to supplement the fact that these "Radio hits" don't get played on the radio any more, but to provide the entire album for streaming is a disincentive for people to buy the album.  "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"  Yes, collectors such as ourselves are a different breed who actually buy what we like but the general public prefer free milk.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 15:27
Continuing that thought from a why the entire album is available point: getting a pittance from streaming is a tiny step above from getting nothing from pirating.  It does appear as though more prog bands are shunning the streaming and selling downloads and only offering CD purchases or downloads on their websites, their label's websites, or sites like SoundCloud or BandCamp.  They are more difficult and expensive for their fans to gain access and may turn off more casual fans but it is a business model that I have been seeing more of lately.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 15:31
^ Good point Scott.....Other issue is I bet the vast majority of listeners on these streaming sites are teenage kids, Jr high, HS and even elementary.....they are not "buyers" of music. That being said if the artist only concern is getting their music out there with the hope that some of it will be bought, then ok...but don't complain when you have zippo for sales.

My youngest son is 16yr old......To my knowledge he has not bought any CDs or music online or any store. By the time I was his age I probably had 200 albums in cassette, 8-track and vinyl formats and a smattering of 1/4" reel tapes too.

I bought the cow, not only did I get milk but I got hamburgers and steak......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2016 at 15:31
I use Spotify for probably 80% of my listening, so you'd know I don't have problem with streaming. I've also bought around 35 albums, all in the last year when I found that I love music, as well as several bandcamp downloads.

I've illegally downloaded one album (Orang-Utan), here's why:

"I have to comment on this remarkable group and their case history in retrospect: It’s pretty damn sad that after having paid for the then “State of The Art” recorded studio time that went into making up their excellent early Heavy Rock album, with zero credit whatsoever at the time and now having several subsequent CD reissues since, that these same actual band members of which some are still active musicians today, have yet to receive a single cent for all their early stellar hard work!" - http://waxidermy.com/orang-utan-same-1970-bell-records/

I've bought 4 King Crimson albums (most out of any band).  Smart move on KC, they're too good for streaming.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 03:16
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

As far as I am concerned, this is a very good time for this debate. The other night, I reread the exceptional interview that Jim Garten did with Martin Orford on this site. I would,thoroughly recommend that people read it again, because it is absolutely one of the finest I have ever read anywhere.

To summarise, Martin retired from the music business owing to the fact that he objected to the fact that he could no longer have a sustainable business model, this, according to him, owing to a combination of illegal downloads, and a pittance paid to artists from legal streaming sites. I might add here, btw, that Martin left IQ for differences over the writing process, not the Internet issue. I also read a later interview with Nick Barrett of Pendragon, another artist I greatly admire, in which he made similar points, and backed Martin to the hilt. Forum members would also note the supporting comments by Rachel (Wilcey), who, I believe, met Nick via an interview she did with him for PA.

My view is this. I have never downloaded illegally, because I believe it is tantamount to stealing. An artist deserves to get paid for the work produced, and the nature of the acts we listen to, by and large, do not have that large an audience in the first place.

Streaming, however, is a different matter and beast altogether. For a start, sites such as Spotify, iTunes, emusic, and the rest, are perfectly legal. Indeed, I have started to subscribe to iTunes cloud streaming service myself recently, this to have access to a large library on the move (I travel a lot with work), and also to "try before I buy". A good recent example of this is the new Karnataka album, which I purchased after listening to it first on this medium.

I am quite old fashioned, in that I like to have a physical product. There are certain acts, Marillion, Pendragon, Hackett, IQ, Edison's Children, to name but a few, where I will buy any new release, usually pre ordering. This is because I am a fan, and a long term one, at that.

However, I do find the streaming sites to be very good for listening before I spend money, and I take comfort that they do, at least, pay something over to the artist (any "inadequacies", or "unfairness" in these models are not my doing, and I no longer feel much like trying to change the world after years of trying to do so in the Trade Union movement, and not getting particularly far).

The Internet is a fact of life. It ain't going anywhere. Successful acts have harnessed it, and turned it to their advantage. Marillion are a very good example of this. It is right and propert that sites such as this discourage, actively, illegal activity where music downloading is concerned. However, to conclude, I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with people, consumers, legally streaming.

Nice thread, Ryan, which I hope can be an interesting, useful, and positive debate on the site

As usual from Lazland, lucid and apposite comments which I endorse entirely.

Illegal downloading is theft and I've never done it; streaming isn't, and the clever bands can indeed use this to their advantage. Personally, though, I far prefer 180g of vinyl to a file on my computer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 05:05
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Not that I am complaining, because I enjoy listening to albums on Spotify or Amazon Prime, but it seems odd to me that bands make their entire album available for streaming.

One thing to remember is that streaming depends on an internet connection. Yes, you can store tracks from Spotify locally but it's a proprietary format and there's a limit on how many tracks you can download. I listen to most of my music on the Tube whilst commuting to and from work so streaming is not an option there, nor is it in my car. Hence, although I use Spotify I still buy CDs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 05:17
Streaming is an absolute complete utter rip off if you're a musician. 

Support it and music will die. Simple as that. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 05:49
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I, honestly, do not feel that Martin has a whole lot to complain about, since he is one of the few folks that got lucky ... it feels like the Beatles complaining about the extra millions they did not get.

Martin, and many others, were lucky and made a lot in their lives. They should really be more thankful of their work and what they received from it. I really have no qualms with his comments, but find the whole thing similar to the greed that so many bands have shown over the years ... and my comment is ... what about the music? Is it really important? Or you really don't care and just want the money?


You seem intimately acquainted with Martin Orford's finances. Perhaps you do not know them that well. The last I heard, he was looking for a full-time job and living on benefits (which were about to run out) in a small terraced house. He actually made very little money from his music and supported himself with a full time job managing GEP; to my knowledge, all the other members of IQ have employment as well.

Most progressive rock musicians (except a few, very fortunate ones) live on a financial knife edge and need to sell their music to live. Freeloaders and thieves (which is what illegal downloaders are) ruin that situation and the result is that we lose musicians like Martin.

Sure Martin is lucky in that he was able to get his music out there and become (in the prog world) a famous and highly respected artist. But don't fall for the myth that he got rich.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 05:51

Pandora Paid Pharrell Just $6300 For 105 Million "Happy" Plays

"Pharrell Williams was paid just $6300 for 105 million plays of his hit song ‘Happy,’ according to the Financial Times.  The $6k was reportedly before Sony took its share.

While working on several fronts to reduce rates, Pandora currently pays about $.0014 per song play split among all rightsholders.  "We’re projecting over a billion dollars of revenue next year,"said Pandora founder Tim Westergren, "and we’re sharing that revenue very fairly with the artist community.”"


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2016 at 06:00
Let me be blunt.

Streaming is a total ripoff. Anyone who supports it is killing music - real music. Artists get absolutely nothing - pennies - for their work. 

It may be a very good deal for the consumer, who can console themselves with the idea that they're paying for streaming music "and therefore some of that goes back to the artist". 

Er, no.

Streaming costs a fortune to run and most of it goes back into the websites, servers, or the pockets of a few people. Not to the artists. 

Everyone here on this site consumes hand made, low sales volume music crafted - I use the word advisedly - by proper musicians. These musicians do it for the love, in the main, but they have to make some kind of living as well. Not all musicians, in fact, the great majority, will never make enough money to "give up the day job". And that's fine, we accept it.

But no one is going to accept being ripped off forever. And this is a rip off. 

If you're a fan - a proper one - buy the music, support the artist. If not, you are, quite frankly, a parasite. This is a two way relationship between artist and public. It seems to be pretty much bu88ered up at the moment. 

Streaming sites came along pretty quickly - things change fast in the modern age. Suppose all decent musicians decide that they've had enough of being ripped off and there are no fans left - at which point, they all play for themselves and their own amusement ?

At that point, you will be left with (a) the back catalogue and (b) a group of rappers playing "beatz" on streaming sites. By all means use streaming sites to listen to new music..... but if you then don't actually buy it, there will come a day when no one is willing to produce new music for you. 

Supply and demand.


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