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Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20666
Posted: November 19 2015 at 15:48
RayRo wrote:
Man, this discussion really got hang up on Mr. Aslan. For a change of pace, let's inquire what solutions Bill Maher, or any other isalmophobe, has for this problem. Aside for categorizing all Muslims as having the same character.
Why is Maher an 'Islamophobe..? He dislikes 'all religions'....so shouldn't he be a Religiousphobe'...?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20666
Posted: November 19 2015 at 15:47
The T wrote:
Unlike others, I have read his book There is No God but God and I don't see neither an excuse for terrorims nor the complete opposite. Azlan's book has a pretty fair down the middle vision Of Islam and it's history. I don't know why he has to provide solutions. Other people are the ones in charge (if possible) of that.
What 'other people'...? If he's an expert in Islam shouldn't he have some insight into this problem..?
If not people like him then who?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: November 02 2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 171
Posted: November 19 2015 at 15:45
Man, this discussion really got hang up on Mr. Aslan. For a change of pace, let's inquire what solutions Bill Maher, or any other isalmophobe, has for this problem. Aside for categorizing all Muslims as having the same character.
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: November 19 2015 at 15:22
Unlike others, I have read his book There is No God but God and I don't see neither an excuse for terrorims nor the complete opposite. Azlan's book has a pretty fair down the middle vision Of Islam and it's history. I don't know why he has to provide solutions. Other people are the ones in charge (if possible) of that.
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20666
Posted: November 19 2015 at 14:54
twseel wrote:
It's not really supposed to be a two-sided conversation... He's being questioned as an expert on the Muslim faith. His expertise is needed to get a more balanced way of looking on the problem of extremist Islam, not so that he can disapprove of terrorism like everyone else, because that speaks for itself.
Fair enough...but he's still got an attitude problem imho. If you are being an expert then try doing it without being confrontational or others won't hear what you are saying.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: December 15 2012
Location: abroad
Status: Offline
Points: 22767
Posted: November 19 2015 at 14:46
It's not really supposed to be a two-sided conversation... He's being questioned as an expert on the Muslim faith. His expertise is needed to get a more balanced way of looking on the problem of extremist Islam, not so that he can disapprove of terrorism like everyone else, because that speaks for itself.
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20666
Posted: November 19 2015 at 14:02
Guldbamsen wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
^You may want to read up on Muslims/Islam. Like Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jedis and Swedes they too come in all kinds of versions
Crash course coming up:
I actually read his first book called There Is No God But God...some years back because we were having a religious discussion at our Unitarian Church about Islam in the modern world. His main point was that Islam has not yet had it's Reformation as Christianity did in the 1500's. I'm not a religious scholar so some of it went over my head but in that video clip his answers are wanting imho . He's ready to call other people stupid and blame them for not getting it , but he has no answers for the problem either and while not exactly an apologist for these radical actions he seems to be giving them a pass in some ways.
I wish they had asked him straight out what he would do about these radical Islamists since it's not general Islam that's the problem currently. Would he have had any solutions? Probably not.
I think he's right on the money, and I certainly don't see him as an apologist. He is trying to open their eyes, because they continuously refer to Muslims as one big group of people. The problems only increase exponentially if we set out thinking there are easy solutions to this problem....and yes he is not offering up any of those (thank ford) but infinitely more important talking about the foundation on which they can form.
We are never going to "win" this war if we continue to paint every Muslim with the same brush. Once we start homing in on the differences between the many many different peoples - we're that much closer to identifying the real enemy - and like the good ol' saying goes 'Know your enemy'.
While some of that is true if you are not offering any solutions yet still spouting about the issue then what are you accomplishing? His attitude is one of 'I know more than you'..and he's arrogant, regardless of how well meaning you think he is.
His 'dialogue' seems one sided even though he acts like he's taking the higher ground. Where are all the moderate Islamic leaders speaking out in public against the radical ones..?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: November 02 2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 171
Posted: November 19 2015 at 11:30
Yes, T, xenophophia, like any other form of ignorance and fear, easily spreads like some airborne virus. Unfortunately, this type of thing doesn't shock me anymore. But the outrage I feel still remains.
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: November 19 2015 at 11:26
By the way, the House of Representatives of the US will vote in a bill by the GOP (or grand collection of idiots) to extra screen and, in a word, stop Syrian refugees coming to the US. oh the humanity...
Joined: November 02 2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 171
Posted: November 19 2015 at 11:21
I applaud many here for their liberal and humanitarian views regarding this threads topic, but the bottom line is simply this:
Until the media spends as much time with the peaceful adherents of Islam as they do with on the violent extremists, a balanced picture of Islam will not be forthcoming.
No peripheral views and discussions such as Raza Aslan's criticism of Bill Maher's islamophobia (which is hard to say given all that Maher has done for liberal causes) or pictures of dead refugees do little to portray the Syrian refugees as people. Only those that speak and are heard can be viewed as people with the same fears, dreams and hopes that every other person on this planet shares with each other.
Theseare people, humanbeings, that we so casually talk of, and then petition, to discardlikerubbish.
^You may want to read up on Muslims/Islam. Like Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jedis and Swedes they too come in all kinds of versions
Crash course coming up:
I actually read his first book called There Is No God But God...some years back because we were having a religious discussion at our Unitarian Church about Islam in the modern world. His main point was that Islam has not yet had it's Reformation as Christianity did in the 1500's. I'm not a religious scholar so some of it went over my head but in that video clip his answers are wanting imho . He's ready to call other people stupid and blame them for not getting it , but he has no answers for the problem either and while not exactly an apologist for these radical actions he seems to be giving them a pass in some ways.
I wish they had asked him straight out what he would do about these radical Islamists since it's not general Islam that's the problem currently. Would he have had any solutions? Probably not.
I think he's right on the money, and I certainly don't see him as an apologist. He is trying to open their eyes, because they continuously refer to Muslims as one big group of people. The problems only increase exponentially if we set out thinking there are easy solutions to this problem....and yes he is not offering up any of those (thank ford) but infinitely more important talking about the foundation on which they can form.
We are never going to "win" this war if we continue to paint every Muslim with the same brush. Once we start homing in on the differences between the many many different peoples - we're that much closer to identifying the real enemy - and like the good ol' saying goes 'Know your enemy'.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20666
Posted: November 18 2015 at 14:23
Guldbamsen wrote:
^You may want to read up on Muslims/Islam. Like Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jedis and Swedes they too come in all kinds of versions
Crash course coming up:
I actually read his first book called There Is No God But God...some years back because we were having a religious discussion at our Unitarian Church about Islam in the modern world. His main point was that Islam has not yet had it's Reformation as Christianity did in the 1500's. I'm not a religious scholar so some of it went over my head but in that video clip his answers are wanting imho . He's ready to call other people stupid and blame them for not getting it , but he has no answers for the problem either and while not exactly an apologist for these radical actions he seems to be giving them a pass in some ways.
I wish they had asked him straight out what he would do about these radical Islamists since it's not general Islam that's the problem currently. Would he have had any solutions? Probably not.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
Posted: November 18 2015 at 11:55
For what it's worth, here in Denmark the media described Breivik as a hardline nationalist first and a Christian fundamentalist second if at all. I remember quite a few left-wing publications blaming his actions on the increasing popularity of national-conservative ideology over the last 10 years, but not on his religious convictions.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Exactly Teo. We don't go around fearing Christians here in Scandinavia because of Anders Breivik......but yeah if the media had mirrored the way they go about portraying Muslims, we probably would.
We fear what we don't understand and most of the Western world do not have a fecking clue about Muslims other than what the news tell them. I grew up with Muslims from Ghana, Somalia, Iran, Turkey, Yugoslavia and Pakistan, and I still consider myself pretty ignorant about their religion....yet I clearly see how misrepresented they are, when I turn on my tv. Everything gets jumbled together under one roof.
Edited by Guldbamsen - November 18 2015 at 11:56
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: November 18 2015 at 10:47
Just to kindly remind everyone that many of the US' infamous mass shootings of recent times and some terrorist acts too have been committed by all-too-kind Christian extremists. We just don't have a Saudi Arabia and other states helping them all coalesce into one single awful group, and we don't have a US arming all of them in the 80's. And of course there are 236418 other differences but still, let's remember other religions' followers can kill people in the modern era, too.
Joined: March 18 2013
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 291
Posted: November 18 2015 at 06:31
To me it boils down to a numbers game. If 2 million people enter Europe as refugees and as little as 1 in a hundred of those people is a plant then I end up with 20000 potential terrorists in Europe. That is horrific when you think of the potential danger to us people loving, peace loving, love your brother. help your brother individuals. When Western children are murdered, Western homes are torched and Western ideology is made irrelevant then who will we all blame?
Further than that - not now but in 50 years time - our grandchildren could well be living in an Islam dominated Europe because they will and do procreate more children than the typical Western family does. If I can have more than 1 wife because my culture tells me that I can then I will have more children than you will. My question in that possible future scenario is where is Israel then and because of that where is everything that I have held dear and believed in then? The refugees couldn't have been taken in by other Moslem dominated countries? Ask yourselves some serious questions and you may arrive at some serious answers perhaps.
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RayRo wrote:
