LGBTA Thread

garfunkel wrote: No.  Some folks believe that if there is an ordinance that "makes" everyone accept everyone, then racism, sexism and whatever other nonsense will go away.  Safe spaces for everyone!

Laws are not meant to change how people think or feel but how they act. Simply put, a Law is a system of rules that are enforced through social institutions in order to govern behavior.

This is not a perfect world, but laws do keep most people from doing whatever they want to. Do you agree?

^ and actually the most important part of fighting prejudice is, of course, the education, and not the criminal part... but, again, you would need to legislate this, because schools and others educational levels dont tend to have a tradition on fighting prejudice (sexual and racial, for that instance).

GKR wrote: The basic idea of the laws (idealistic thinking, of course) is to prevent something that already happen to happen again. If hate crimes and discrimination exists as a rule, you have to establish something to revert this "natural" tendency. Otherwise, a false simetry could be made: "Everyone is equal, so we dont need a law to protect gay people".

Idealistically, I agree with what you say. But no one will ever be seen as equal because even if people actually do become equal to one another, someone will still cry fowl. "You're Oreo cookie is bigger than mine!" It's human nature, I'm afraid.

garfunkel wrote: Definitely!  Although, I believe some people feel more insecure than others, are looking for unneeded attention and more protection, but it doesn't exist.

And why doesn't it exist? I took up marshal arts to learn to protect myself. I'll never win a UFC cage fight, but I can defend myself. Others can learn to defend themselves too. But they must believe that's possible to defend themselves and that laws exist to help them. To me, they go hand in hand.

RayRo wrote: It's human nature, I'm afraid.

There is no human nature, only social construct.

By the way, I forgot: how do we legislate? By demanding as a organized movement - thats the political part of the LGBTA life. Nothing of this is easy or simple, of course.

*frinspar* wrote: RayRo wrote: This is not a perfect world, but laws do keep most people from doing whatever they want to. Do you agree? Nope. Besides the laws that cover "Don't kill", "don't steal", and "don't speed" most people don't know what other laws exist until they break them. It's not law that guide us, it's consequence. And consequences aren't always covered by laws alone. Being a good person is not something that laws or government can ever, ever shape into being. They can establish the equality between people only as it relates to the bureaucracy. They can't dictate or direct human nature.

I understand what you are saying but my definition of law, which is universal, is that human behavior is controlled. How it works in someone's mind is not the prime point. Fear. Consequence, Or whatever.

Edited by RayRo - November 10 2015 at 14:21

Or to be politically correct: Taekwondo.

*frinspar* wrote: RayRo wrote: This is not a perfect world, but laws do keep most people from doing whatever they want to. Do you agree? Nope. Besides the laws that cover "Don't kill", "don't steal", and "don't speed" most people don't know what other laws exist until they break them. It's not law that guide us, it's consequence. And consequences aren't always covered by laws alone. Being a good person is not something that laws or government can ever, ever shape into being. They can establish the equality between people only as it relates to the bureaucracy. They can't dictate or direct human nature.

oh if it were but consequence that guides us! the world would be a better place. but alas!, it isn't.

I don't believe for a moment that it is fear of consequences why people don't all murder, steal or rape. it is definitely not for me. I don't do it because there is a tacit agreement about social conduct. even if there weren't any laws at all I would not do it.

this tacit agreement is usually only broken when people are driven to an extreme some way or the other. if I have no means of supplying myself with food or drink in a legal way I will steal.

there are also psychological extremes. so-called "hate crimes" fall in my opinion into this category. some people feel intimidated by people who look or behave differently or who have different believes, however irrational their fear may be.

mere greed, which is often the reason for certain crimes, is in my opinion a psychological extreme as well


Edited by BaldJean - November 09 2015 at 21:04

You can be trained to do a lot of things but in the back of your mind you are going to think the way you've always thought. Only you can change the way you think.