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Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: October 20 2015 at 14:57
timothy leary wrote:
If you want to play "would haves' the Americans would have put the French down too.
SteveG wrote:
^Yes, Napoleon's troops against American guerrilla fighters would have been slaughtered.
While I applaud rooting for the home team, I'm not so sure. America wasn't winning the revolutionary war against Britain before France intervened despite being armed and supplied by the French practically since the beginning (France supplied 95% of all uniforms, weaponry and gunpowder for the duration of the war). [The Dutch also joined the Americans but the British kicked their arse for it and seized a lot of their Indian and West Indian territories... while the Americans were fighting the dregs of the British Army in America, the Dutch found themselves up against the best the British Empire had to offer, such was the value of India compared to America]. After York Town Britain chose to press for peace, resulting in the Treaty of Paris, not because it couldn't win, but because it was good strategic move when faced with a war against the combined powers of France and her allies on five fronts (East coast of America, The West Indies, The Mediterranean, India and the English Channel) - it was a prudent move to surrender America while keeping the Caribbean (which was worth far more in economic terms), and use its resources to defend territories closer to home. It was also strategic in keeping Spain's part in the war to a minimum, as the British knew they'd not win a war in Europe against France, Austria and Spain. Entry of France into the American Revolutionary War turned it from being a major conflict for the British into being a disposable pawn in an bigger fight. As I said before, France gained nothing from joining in a war that was nothing to do with them, the debts they incurred sent them into decline that ultimately resulted in the French Revolution and the rise of Napoleon Bonapart.
Napoleon was wary of the Americans after the revolution, because despite providing supplies to the Americans prior to joining the conflict, all of the trade deals that the newly created American nation formed after the war were with Britain, not France. There is no doubt that he wanted to establish a French Empire in America, and having gained the Louisiana Territory by virtue of taking control of Spain, would have used that to expand into neighbouring territories. In the end he was forced into selling Louisiana to fund the pending war with Britain, specifically to invade England. Had he been successful he would have turned is attention back to America, not only to take back Louisiana but to continue his empire building. (Really, when a bargain is too good to be true then that means it probably is too good to be true).
The other thing is... Napoleon was one of the greatest military commanders in history and would never have engaged in a guerilla war, America would have faced the same field battles they faced against the British. Besides, 17th century muskets are not ideal guerilla weapons, while the British certainly met with some ambush tactics those were easily dealt with, most of the conflict were field battles.
SteveG wrote:
Poor planning. Perhaps that contributed to us throwing them out the first time! Na Na!
Well, at least you got a nice new White House out of it, but it was not considered to be anything other than a minor part of the Napoleonic Wars at the time (or since come to that)
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
Posted: October 20 2015 at 15:02
^We were only thirteen colonies against the greatest empire on the face of the earth. The sun never set on the British Empire. Unless you were in the US. And thanks for the new White House.
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: October 20 2015 at 15:07
SteveG wrote:
^We were only thirteen colonies against the greatest empire on the face of the earth. The sun never set on the British Empire. Unless you were the US. And thanks for the new White House.
Britain was fighting France and all her allies in Europe, you were not fighting the whole might of the British empire, just a small contingent of it.
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
Posted: October 20 2015 at 15:18
Regardless of the past 'what if' scenarios, the fact is that Great Britain and America have been staunch allies for good causes as well as bad, and that actually means a lot in this crazy world.
Edited by SteveG - October 20 2015 at 15:22
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Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: October 20 2015 at 15:35
SteveG wrote:
^Sour grapes!
History is written by the victors, which is why none of the battles won by the British during the revolutionary war are commemorated in any regimental honours. The returning troops were all but ignored (the fleeing American Royalists were better received in Britain than the soldiers) and no one remembers the war of 1812 as we had far bigger wars to fight that year. And we don't celebrate the 4th of July for obvious reasons.
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 21321
Posted: October 20 2015 at 15:44
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Sour grapes!
History is written by the victors, which is why none of the battles won by the British during the revolutionary war are commemorated in any regimental honours. The returning troops were all but ignored (the fleeing American Royalists were better received in Britain than the soldiers) and no one remembers the war of 1812 as we had far bigger wars to fight that year. And we don't celebrate the 4th of July for obvious reasons.
I've been asked more often than you'd think if the 4th of July is a holiday in England.
Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13229
Posted: October 20 2015 at 16:59
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Sour grapes!
History is written by the victors, which is why none of the battles won by the British during the revolutionary war are commemorated in any regimental honours. The returning troops were all but ignored (the fleeing American Royalists were better received in Britain than the soldiers) and no one remembers the war of 1812 as we had far bigger wars to fight that year. And we don't celebrate the 4th of July for obvious reasons.
The actual battles were negligible in the grand scheme of things. Britain lost the colonies through bad governance, stupidity and pomposity. Edmund Burke knew what was going on when he stated succinctly in 1774:
"But if intemperately, unwisely, fatally, you sophisticate and poison the very source of government by urging subtle deductions, and consequences odious to those you govern, from the unlimited and illimitable nature of supreme sovereignty, you will teach them by these means to call that sovereignty itself in question."
Edited by The Dark Elf - October 20 2015 at 16:59
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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timothy leary wrote:
Another relevant saying is 'to the victors go the spoils.'
I have been told from a good authority that the Peanuts Gang love Steve Miller!