Blind Faith - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Cosmiclawnmower View Drop Down

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Posted: September 17 2015 at 16:59

Of course Blind faith also had Rick Grech from Family who certainly produced 2 of the most influential psych/ proto prog/ early prog lps in 'Music in a dolls house' and 'family entertainment'.. Those lps were a huge influence on Genesis and many others. Cream were without doubt almost THE proto prog band, doing what they did, mixing blues, jazz and extended improvisation which made them trail-blazers for Yes, King Crimson as well as numerous US west coast acts.

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Posted: September 17 2015 at 20:05

^This is another great reason. So what we got in Blind Faith are:

- Ginger Baker was in a several related projects. He was the co-founder of Cream, as well as the founder of the short lived fusion group Ginger Baker's Air Force. He also participated on two studio albums for Hawkwind, as well as a tour in the mid 80's.

- Rick Grech was, as aforementioned, a part of Family in '66 (a very influential band for the bands that John brought up), as well as participating with Traffic on Low Spark of High Heeled Boys and Welcome to the Canteen. He was also a part of Ginger Baker's Air Force.

- Steve Winwood was in Traffic, another early prog baned from '67, had a very successful solo career. He participated in his bandmate Jim Capaldi's solo career, who himself dabbled in progressive rock. He played on the organ in Ginger Baker's Air Force as well.

- Eric Clapton is one of the most influential guitarists in rock history (debatable, but to some extent to anyone, it's true). He has participated most notably in Cream, which like the Jimi Hendrix experience is notable for its influence, as well as the equally popular Yardbirds from '63. Not to mention he has spawned a very successful solo career.

So all in all I think that Blind Faith is good enough for the addition. If it really is too much of a problem then okay, but I present you with my thoughts.

Edited by aglasshouse - September 17 2015 at 20:06

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Easy Money View Drop Down

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 02:21

Re previous JHE and Cream discussion:

Much of "Electric Ladyland" is a progressive rock album, many of the tracks on Hendrix's "4th' album were progressive rock songs.

Hendrix was an often fill in for the Soft Machine, and recorded many very out there sessions with Robert Wyatt (recently released by the way).

He toured with Pink Floyd, and played many a show with the Nice and was a frequent improvisational partner with Keith Emerson. Keith was supposed to play on "Axis Bold as Love" but a tour got in the way.

Other than Jack Bruce's work outside of Cream, give me an example that makes Cream near as proto prog as JHE.

Edited by js (Easy Money) - September 18 2015 at 02:24

someone_else View Drop Down

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 03:11

aglasshouse wrote:

^This is another great reason. So what we got in Blind Faith are:

So all in all I think that Blind Faith is good enough for the addition. If it really is too much of a problem then okay, but I present you with my thoughts.

Regardless of my own humble opinion about the addition of Blind Faith, I think that there is no argument to support it as bad as the players. For similar reasons we might as well suggest Demis Roussos because he was a member of Aphrodite's Child, whose inclusion in Symphonic Prog was based on one truly progressive album, on which he sang one song. But that does not make the musical baklava's and kataifi's he sold by millions Prog Related in any way.

And I have one more addition to your list to make: Ginger Baker also played in Baker Gurvitz Army (Heavy Prog) Wink

Komandant Shamal View Drop Down

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 03:55

Blind Faith was strictly a BLUES-ROCK "supergroup" who were released only one album WITHOUT A TOUCH of Progressive rock.

nuff said.

Edited by Komandant Shamal - September 18 2015 at 04:23

Dean

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 05:37

aglasshouse wrote:

Ah, thank you for clarifying. That makes a heck of a lot more sense. I sent Scott a message. I don't know if he'll respond but he might.

While it is true that only Special Collaborators can nominate an artist for inclusion into Prog Related (or Proto Prog), this does not mean that SCs should be randomly targeted with suggestions in the hope that they will pass it on to the Admin Team. Ideally the proposal should be publicaly discussed and then any SCs who are convinced by the argument can take up the case with other collabs before undertaking the task of officially nominating them.

...anyone can raise the question (via this suggestions thread) to open up the discussion:

Any member can suggest a band for inclusion in the Prog Related category:

Suggestions should be made in the Suggest New Bands and Artists lounge as normal.
This suggestion does not mean that the artist will be proposed or added, but opens up a means of debate and discussion on the suitability of the addition.
If necessary this debate will continue in the Collaborator zone in the designated Proto-Prog & Prog-Related suggestions/additions thread.

So - all suggestions to PP and PR are good, but that does not automatically mean they will be proposed. It is only a means to open a discussion and discussions are also good (until they become 'partisan', then they ain't good at all).

As a side note:

Including other potentially suitable artists into the discussion at the same time is often counter-productive, the IF X THEN Y argument is never used here.

Additions are generally based upon the music released by the artist/band, not the personnel who played on it.

Complaining about Prog Related and Proto Prog, and how they are managed here is also counter productive.

Also...

As a member of the Admin Team that voted Hendrix into Proto-Prog, I was only in favour of adding the JHE band, which would have excluded the rest of Hendrix's output (such as Band of Gypsys), none of which I feel were Proto-Prog per se, but unfortunately since anyone can add an album to a discography it would have been impossible to enforce such a restriction so I backed-down.

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Guldbamsen View Drop Down

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 05:38

I've had this album in my collection for a good 20 years now. As much as I dig it, I really don't hear any prog in it. (Damn tasty) Blues Rock with a twist.

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 05:50

I'd like to add to what Dean eloquently stated that suggesting a band for addition to PR on the basis of personnel is a very slippery slope. If we take previous involvement with prog bands into account, then we should consider adding The Police (Andy Summers was briefly in Soft Machine, and Stewart Copeland in Curved Air) and Motorhead (Lemmy was a member of Hawkwind). As broad-minded and inclusive as I am, I don't think I really want to see Motorhead in the PA database. And then, of course, the slope would lead us right to the most hated man in prog - Phil Collins Wink

chopper

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 07:15

Raff wrote:

I'd like to add to what Dean eloquently stated that suggesting a band for addition to PR on the basis of personnel is a very slippery slope. If we take previous involvement with prog bands into account, then we should consider adding The Police (Andy Summers was briefly in Soft Machine, and Stewart Copeland in Curved Air) and Motorhead (Lemmy was a member of Hawkwind). As broad-minded and inclusive as I am, I don't think I really want to see Motorhead in the PA database. And then, of course, the slope would lead us right to the most hated man in prog - Phil Collins Wink

Ah, poor old Phil.

I do agree, it's the band that counts, not what the band members have done in other bands. IMO Blind Faith are prog-related at best and that's debatable.

Tom Ozric

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 07:43

^ ..... and Kajagoogoo coz of Nick Beggs

...... adding this........... The 'Goo track titled 'Introduction', sounds no less Prog-Electronic than 80's Tangerine Dream or Klaus Schulze. And also, no less than Japan. My thoughts a re that Sylvian, Barbieri and Karn branched out into Prog territory, and Beggs is a renowned Prog session-bassist, who obsessed over Close To The Edge ( not to mention the other 'Goo guys loving Zep, Sabbath, Hawkwind, Budgie, Floyd etc.) O.K. Limahl was all Abba and Flock Of Seagulls......)..... Still, Prog-related right there. Try the piece called 'The Garden' ( B-side of Lion's Mouth), and say it's rubbish........

Edited by Tom Ozric - September 18 2015 at 09:56

SteveG

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 11:13

Dean wrote:

Including other potentially suitable artists into the discussion at the same time is often counter-productive, the IF X THEN Y argument is never used here.

Additions are generally based upon the music released by the artist/band, not the personnel who played on it.

Complaining about Prog Related and Proto Prog, and how they are managed here is also counter productive.

I have to respectfully disagree with your first statement as I have in the past prosed Y and was told that X and Z would have to be included, opening the floodgates and admitting a multitude of past artists.

As for complaining about how proto prog and prog related is managed being counter productive, it can only be because the colabs don't consider the logistics of these two vastly different and unrelated subgenres.

Proto prog is a small fraction of the sixties rock world which PA, IMHO, has listed 96% of the truly innovative and influential artists, but still leave out a few like Cream with the paranoid feeling that hundreds of proto prog groups would have to be include instead of a handful.

Prog related is a broad genre that could quite conceivably open the floodgates as almost every artist from Dire Straits to Los Lobos has produced a prog style album from time to time. So, the math is reversed having 4% included with 96% beating on the doors.

It's time for PA to see and understand the deference between these two so called related genres and let artists like Cream be listed in the proto prog genre without worrying about the imaginary floodgates bursting open.

Edited by SteveG - September 18 2015 at 11:49

aglasshouse View Drop Down

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 14:51

To me, prog related means that the artist is related to the progressive genre. If all four of the band members who were needless to say progressive in their own genre, then the band that is composed of the progressive rock musicians is strongly related to prog itself. I'm a collaborator on MMA and in the past I have had to add several different artists into the metal related genre due to their musical ventures in other notable bands. I feel the exact same way about Blind Faith, where technicality need not get involved and just have facts to base it on.

If people so strongly feel that if they are added that hundreds more are necessary, then they should be looked for and closely inspected. PA is something that we do in our spare time, to mingle with other lovers of the genre, but it's also (as the front page suggests) "intending to the the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource." If we intend to work by this quota I think that some measures should be taken to do so. However, if it really is all just a breaking dam that people are afraid to touch, then that is a problem. We have dozens of ready collaborators all of which are easily prepared to indulge in strengthening the site's archive. Of course I don't mean that all artists suggested should be added, but instead of leaving a tipping point that leaves many people displeased, they should be inspected in a casual manner just like everything else that is put up for addition. How much time would we be really wasting of our time?

Edited by aglasshouse - September 18 2015 at 14:52

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SteveG

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:02

To be fair, its probably good to reprint Dean's answer to my gripe about the prog related genre from " the what upset you today?" thread, as it explains a lot:

SteveG wrote:

Why don't we just include all rock bands in PA as prog related (progressive rock is related to rock, is it not?) and end these endless prog related/not prog related discussions. It's a damn silly genre anyway and I would love to know what the person was smoking when he/she thought it up.

Btw, that's what upset me today.

Dean wrote:

Well. My stock answer is: because we aren't RYM. LOL

Without changing the entry criteria (as listed on the PR category page) Prog Related has the potential of being the largest single category here and if we included all rock bands it would eclipse all the other categories added together, it would dominate the site and detract from the core activity of reviewing Prog albums by Prog bands.

A history...

Prog Related is a compromise. Between 2004 and 2006ish (before the genre teams were created and before the categories of Prog Related and Proto Prog existed) a band could be added into the archive by any Special Collaborator without discussion or evaluation. This resulted in a number of essentially non-Prog bands being added for a variety of perfectly valid reasons, such as non-Prog solo outings by members of established Prog bands, non-Prog Art Rock bands, and bands that were either influential on or influenced by Prog Rock or Prog bands in some way or other, or simply because the person adding them believed they were Prog at the time.

When it was deemed that a clean-up was necessary the Admins and Collabs had to decide what to do with these artists. Basically we had a whole bunch of artists that didn't fit in with what most people would regard as Prog Rock and in a perfect world we would have just deleted them. However, Max has a policy of not deleting bands once they have been added, so the ability to delete artists is unavailable to the Admin team, therefore the compromise solution was to create a couple of non-Prog categories for them. So in June of 2006 Brian (Garion86) wrote a brief description for a newly created Prog Related category:

Prog Related definitionRock and Pop Bands and Artists after 1970 who were not truly “prog” (as that term is generally and broadly defined, even by the site), but who were clearly not “mainstream” or simply “rock” bands.
A wide subgenre that encompasses two kinds of bands/artist, that either consist of progressive artist that strayed away from their progressive roots into mainstream rock or were influenced by progressive rock.
Even though the music by these artists is sometimes unrelated it had things in common with prog music in that it was very structured and even adventurous, sometimes hard or heavy, sometimes mellow, strong melodies, good hooks are an integral part of most of the material. Sometimes these artists pioneered other rock genres.
Though most of these artist can't really be considered progressive themselves, their relation to progressive music is not to be underestimated.

And the majority of artist that now reside in that category were moved over to it. Also at that time the subgenre of Art Rock was re-evaluated and, (rightly or wrongly), we ditched the term "Art Rock" completely which resulted in a few non-Prog Art Rock bands being moved into Prog Related.

However, this appeared to give licence to continue adding those kinds of bands, so to limit the number of non-Prog suggestions (which detracts from our main task of evaluating and adding actual Prog bands) in 2007 Iván refined that definition:

Prog Related definitionProgressive rock is not a separate universe in music, it’s a genre among many others, a voice in the chorus and as part of a biggest scenario has points of contact with other musical genres.
Prog Related is the category that groups bands and artists that:
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, OR
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, OR
- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog.
We specify the word MUSICAL because simple performance of a determined instrument in a Prog or mainstream band is not justification enough to include an artist, no matter how virtuoso he/she may be, Prog Archives has to evaluate their compositional work because the music is what determines the characteristics of a band or an artist.
Prog Related bands are not considered part of the genre but they have contributed in some form in the development of Progressive Rock, the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community.

But still we were inundated with suggestions for Prog Related because clearly Iván's revised definition didn't fit all the bands that we already had listed as Prog Related, so somewhen around 2010 John (easy money) refined that further into what we have today.

The number of artists that have been added into Prog Related since 2006 is surprisingly very small. In reality it is around one or two per year, (the last was I believe Buckethead back in April), and smaller number of those additions (Iron Maiden, Metallica, Hendrix) were highly controversial and strongly contested at the time. It is a silly category and it's one we are not keen to expand, so the entry criteria and the suggestion policy are strictly enforced by the Admin team.

Prog Related is like an appendix - no one really understands what it does and it has a tendency to get inflamed for no apparent reason. Wink

Edited by SteveG - September 18 2015 at 15:09

aglasshouse View Drop Down

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:10

So is there a verdict?

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Dean

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:12

I should add that my Centaur album is not related to the content of the post, but thanks for the unsolicited plug.

What?

SteveG

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:14

I didn't know that it was copyrighted. My apologies. Have your solicitor contact mine.

aglasshouse View Drop Down

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Posted: September 18 2015 at 15:38

I just downloaded your album Dean, though I wish I could've paid for it.

Edited by aglasshouse - September 18 2015 at 15:41

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Dean

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Posted: September 19 2015 at 05:54

SteveG wrote:

Dean wrote:

Including other potentially suitable artists into the discussion at the same time is often counter-productive, the IF X THEN Y argument is never used here.

Additions are generally based upon the music released by the artist/band, not the personnel who played on it.

Complaining about Prog Related and Proto Prog, and how they are managed here is also counter productive.

I have to respectfully disagree with your first statement as I have in the past prosed Y and was told that X and Z would have to be included,opening the floodgates of admitting a multitude of past artists.

Yup and nope. It looks like the same argument because it uses the same logic conditional, but the logic itself is different.

The IF Band X THEN Band Y argument for adding Band Y because Band X is already here relies on the perceived musical similarities between the two bands, for example suggesting Megadeth because Metallica is here. This is not a "floodgates" situation because the conditions for entry haven't changed, if Megadeth couldn't get in before the addition of Metallica then they still can't get in after.

The IF Band Y THEN Band X and Z argument for not adding Band Y requires a subtle change in the conditions of entry (rules/criteria) to allow Band Y in that would make it possible to also add Band X and Z. This is a "floodgates" situation (though I'd not use the word myself) because the entry conditions have changed.

SteveG wrote:

That sounds a little presumptive of you, but let's ignore that for the moment...

SteveG wrote:

Proto prog is a small fraction of the sixties rock world which PA, IMHO, has listed 96% of the truly innovative and influential artists, but still leave out a few like Cream with the paranoid felling that hundreds of proto prog groups would have to be include instead of a handful.

Prog related is a broad genre that could quite conceivably open the floodgates as almost artist from Dire Straits to Los Lobos has produced a prog style album from time to time. So, the math is reversed 4% included with 96% beating on the doors.

Ah. I see. Except I don't because the maths is made up and doesn't sound even remotely correct to me.

As the situation with both categories stands (i.e., without changing any of the entry criteria) there are a number of bands that could feasibly get added into Prog Related and very few (if any) that could be added into Proto-Prog. I'll not pull numbers out of thin-air to back that up, (as you pointed out elsewhere, such statistics would be riddled with holes if I did), and I'm not that interested in quibbling over numbers.

As I explained in the post you pasted from the "what upset you today" thread, we don't want to add lots of bands into Prog Related so over the years have made the entry criteria more stringent. That still leaves some bands that could be added, but nothing like as many as can feasibly be suggested.

Proto Prog is a different kettle of fish, here we have not changed the entry criteria since the category was first used here in 2006, in 2007 Iván rephrased Brian's original category definition but that neither tightened nor relaxed the conditions for entry. Since all the bands in this category fit in a narrow time-frame, they haven't changed either. So suggestions that have been discounted in the past will require some extensive re-evaluation of either their music or the use of Proto-Prog as it is currently interpreted here. As we are not interested in re-evaluating Proto Prog as a category, then that means discussing the music created by those suggested bands.

SteveG wrote:

It's time for PA to see and understand the deference between this two so called related genres and let artists like Cream be listed in the proto prog genre without worrying about the imaginary floodgates bursting open.

A few points:

The PA (i.e., the Collaborators and Admins) fully understand the difference between PP and PR.

The submissions policies for both are different in the Site Guidelines, they look similar but are deliberately separated to distinguish between them.
The category "definitions" are different.
Some Senior Members may not understand the differences between them, and all the Prog subgenres, but a few of them never read the documentation we list on the site so allowances can be made.

PP and PR are categories not genres.

Genres are based upon stylistic similarities whereas categories can have no such stylistic similarities but are based upon external factors.
A "Record Fayre" reseller's genre called Proto Prog exists, but that that is not a definition we use here, the only similarity between them is the name.
We do not add artists into Proto Prog because of their relationship (musical or otherwise) to other artists in Proto Prog.
We do not add artists into Prog Related because of their relationship (musical or otherwise) to other artists in Prog Related OR Proto Prog.

The two categories are not related (so called or otherwise) to each other.

Both categories are related to Progressive Rock, but the relationships are different.
We group them together (on the Front Page and in Forum conversations) because they both deal with artists that are not considered to be Progressive Rock artists.

I accept that the "floodgate" argument is imaginary.

Very few Collaborators use this word or this argument, I see it more from non-Collabs who oppose adding particular bands.
The only time I have experienced the "floodgate" argument was when I proposed opening up the PA to self-released albums. In this instance the result was a flood of unsuitable suggestions, not a flood of additions.
However, changing the entry conditions will result in an increase in additions. Referring to that as "opening the floodgates" is IMO an exaggeration to make a point, not a reality (such is the nature of metaphor).

Without exception, all discussion centres around high-profile bands.

Discussions are proportional to the popularity of the artist
A popular band will be suggested more times than an obscure one, this does not add weight to the suggestion.

Now all this sets the ground-rules for suggesting a band such as Blind Faith or Cream and goes some way to explaining why such a suggestion could be successful or unsuccessful. The requirement here is to discuss the music within the prescribed boundaries, not to discuss changing the boundaries (all that does is cloud the issue and should be discussed separately elsewhere).

[I sit here wishing for some reason that I'd stopped off at the triple-fff brewery to buy a couple of bottles of Pressed Rat & Warthog beer to sup with my evening meal... Wink

]

Edited by Dean - September 19 2015 at 06:02

What?

micky

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Posted: September 19 2015 at 07:23

pffff on Blind Faith... now Ginger Baker's Airforce is a sad.. silly.. and f**king stupid omission from this site. Angry

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Dean

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Posted: September 19 2015 at 08:20

micky wrote:

pffff on Blind Faith... now Ginger Baker's Airforce is a sad.. silly.. and f**king stupid omission from this site. Angry

IF NOT Jazz/Rock Fusion THEN Prog Related ?

You're an SC... Open a thread, make your case, allow people time to discuss, then if you're still confident officially nominate them to the Admins.

What?