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Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 06:23
Nostalgic yearning for the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s have swept all over metal too from 2011 onwards. The metal subculture seems to have around then swung away from more extreme and challenging music towards more traditional accessible styles. Half as a result of a counter-reaction against how hard the subculture was trying to think outside the box in the 2000s but also as a result of the genre's re-mainstreaming drawing in a lot of people who are way more normal in their cultural sensibility... coincidentally those decades were also the last time the genre had as much mainstream crossover as it does now!

Last year I've noticed it go back in the opposite direction again, however, after Morbus Chron's Sweven came out even the more conservative parts of the metal community seem to have become more open to outside-the-box thinking in music as a result of that album. Not only have other "new oldschool" death metal groups like Execration and Horrendous gone in a more progressive direction afterwards, but I've also seen people give Gridlink and Thantifaxath a chance who wouldn't have done so before.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 01:59
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I'd say that really, really depends on what you mean by "prog" and "metal". A lot of traditional heavy metal isn't particularly inaccessible to many mainstream rock fans if you can get over a less blues-based more "neoclassical" and lyrics that work more through fantastic metaphor than real life emotions, same situation as those progressive rock groups that get played on classic rock radio though. I wouldn't really call Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden or Metallica less or more accessible than Genesis, Pink Floyd, Rush etc.

The more extreme subgenres I'd call more inaccessible in theory. Not just the harsh vocals, extremely abstract and musical grammar very different from "normal" music but also that the compositional structures can get even more complex and hard to follow. Then again the same thing applies to the most complex Captain Beefheart and Frank Zappa records... as well as avant-prog like Art Zoyd, Henry Cow and Univers Zero. Maybe the latter are more accessible on account of not featuring growled and screamed vocals, but then again what's "accessible" is in large part determined by cultural norms and personal comfort zones. Things that in turn vary with time and place.

I mean, the earlier death metal groups like Entombed and Morbid Angel weren't that far removed from the mainstream-accepted speed/thrash of their day. Hell, Slayer and early Sepultura basically have one foot in each.

idk, when I was into metal in a big way, I knew people who didn't per se have much patience with complex music of any kind but loved extreme metal.  In extreme metal, the complexity or inaccessibility is more of a by product.  The intended purpose of harsh vocals, crushing riffs and really fast drumming is more to convey aggression.  Metalheads love how aggressive the music is.  This is why those who like 'real metal' often mock power metal because it is seen as too happy sounding and lacking the aggression or, to use the appropriate metal terminology, brutality that is an essential component of metal.  Prog doesn't have any one particular hook that way to draw in listeners.  That is simultaneously its strength and weakness.  It demands a lot of patience and perseverance from the listener (who has to be a really intrepid sort to begin with) to start loving prog.  But on the flipside, it is less boxed in and more open to possibilities.  In theory.  In practice, of course, nostalgic yearning for things that sound like "made in the 1970s" seems to have swept all over prog in recent years.


Edited by rogerthat - March 28 2015 at 01:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 01:53
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh,  for God's sake! Do members here really believe that the occult vibe of groups like Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult and crazy old Ozzy is anything more than a way to sell albums?
Perhaps it's because the recording industry is now a shadow of it's  former self that causes some members to forget the real agenda behind the veil of Satanism and the occult: Business! Business! Business!
 
(And business!)


Black Sabbath were just doing it for fun, but starting with my countrymen Mercyful Fate and onwards there have been plenty of metal artists who genuinely follow occult religions. This is a photo of MF frontman King Diamond with the late Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan:


I can come with several other examples, to start with a lot of the Swedish black metal scene (Arckanum, Dissection, Watain) are informed by and practice Gnostic religion on which Arckanum's frontman Johan "Shamaatae" Lahger is something of a major academic authority here in Europe.

If I am not mistaken, Dio himself took Satanism pretty seriously or at least did a pretty good job of pretending to.  It may have been part of the reason for the frequent bouts of discords between him and the rest of Sabbath.  

Re metal and punk, I am not sure if that was really a correction to psych/prog, but yes, it seems fair to say it was a reaction to it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2015 at 00:42
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal
Why isn't prog as successful as metal

Sorry.  Had to get that off my chest.  Carry on.
You cute one Big smile maybe the cause might be us, the so called prog fans who are too critical to see beyond anything good, especially the great contributions new bands are bringing to us. Instead of being happy we tend to undermine them and this is wrong. xxx Hug 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 17:46
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Because popularity is a disease and prog is an effective vaccine...and metal is an STD.

Remember that there is no light without dark. Some day when everyone catches up to prog there will be prog squared :) 

If metal is an STD i'm gonna spread it like wildfire Pig
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 13:35
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:


We could argue that metal heads are less discriminating that proggers.  Wink  Our expectations are higher and thus are more difficult to please.  To me, much of contemporary metal sounds the same no matter how awesome the chops may be or how fast they are played (and speed does not equal quality).  But I think the previous responders have some good observations.  Metal tends to be more image conscious than Prog, at least these days, and that leads to greater recognition and promotion.  Overall, too, the target audience is younger and thus less experienced and more prone to promotion.  Prog artists tend to let the music speak for them, which is less effective.  When I was a teenager in the 70s one of the things that attracted me to Kiss was their image, so that when I listen to them, I visualized their outlandish outfits and makeup in my mind.  It made the music sound better.  I know better than that now, but many contemporary artists, including metal bands, learned from that.  Much of the music biz is, and always has been, promoting an image.  Some Prog artists may be more image conscious than others, but the emphasis is more on the music.  Maybe if more were more image conscious they would be more well known.


Less discriminating than proggers whose expectations are higher?... I doubt it: it's forgetting that a lot of prog fans tend to obsess over 70's classics or Neo-Prog, and that the metal scene is split up between many subgenres.
Furthermore, the generation gap can play a great role: the older generation of metalheads can't care or even bear bands like Slipknot... A band whose image is quite important! Some people don't like bands which are too much "image conscious"!
I remember having talked with the manager of French industrial band Treponem Pal who explained she was somewhat disinterested into modern metal because she felt that there was an annoying dominance of death metal nowadays.


Wel said. Mr. Card. right on the money.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 12:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^That's true, but I feel that the more successful  bands were in it for the money, and I have some personal history with a BOC producer, and they used the whole occult thing as just an image and a way to write  and present interesting songs. And Buck Dharma is as far from an occult lover as you can get.
 

One hundred percent true.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 12:28


In 1970, intelligent kids would question Black Sabbath's "The Wizard". They would react ..."Okay, I've read many books on wizards" and the lyrics in this song are kind of plain and simple, lacking the essence of surreal art. Other people were obsessed with the lyrics , not thinking of them as shabby and wanted to have a role playing game with those lyrics which made them feel very good...as if they were part of something that had a  supernatural connection and for their very small agenda. Then a few years later, more kids were interested in a role play or adapting the song personally to themselves than questioning it and the Metal community grew to be large and powerful. Metal music had the power to lure in the youth and I even think of that process as hypnotic rather than compacting people and claiming that it is totally up to the individual who hears the music, likes it, buys it, and sets the example of living the perfectly normal life. To understand an artist, you cannot allow their work to overshadow your thinking process. You must occasionally back off and allow your own thoughts to resurface, no matter how lured in you are by their music. Obviously..not many people were thinking for themselves...because Metal was quite the opposite with it's style of album covers, lyricism, subject matter, and driving "Speed Metal" volume. It created a personality and a mentality that was quite different than Spinal Tap, (although they had the hair), as there wasn't an abundance of pathetic humor ..unless it was sadistic in nature. It definitely had a huge impact on the youth of the 80's and 90's and the Metal bands were presented through the news media as the ideal candidates of corruption to the minds and mentalities OF the youth and there was no doubt the government got involved ...which was sometimes laughable
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 11:37
^That's true, but I feel that the more successful  bands were in it for the money, and I have some personal history with a BOC producer, and they used the whole occult thing as just an image and a way to write  and present interesting songs. And Buck Dharma is as far from an occult lover as you can get.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 11:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh,  for God's sake! Do members here really believe that the occult vibe of groups like Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult and crazy old Ozzy is anything more than a way to sell albums?
Perhaps it's because the recording industry is now a shadow of it's  former self that causes some members to forget the real agenda behind the veil of Satanism and the occult: Business! Business! Business!
 
(And business!)


Black Sabbath were just doing it for fun, but starting with my countrymen Mercyful Fate and onwards there have been plenty of metal artists who genuinely follow occult religions. This is a photo of MF frontman King Diamond with the late Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan:


I can come with several other examples, to start with a lot of the Swedish black metal scene (Arckanum, Dissection, Watain) are informed by and practice Gnostic religion on which Arckanum's frontman Johan "Shamaatae" Lahger is something of a major academic authority here in Europe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 11:02
Because popularity is a disease and prog is an effective vaccine...and metal is an STD.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 10:47
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

I do know for a fact that there were other cult related killings in Europe


And these incontrovertible facts have been relayed to the relevant law enforcement agencies in Europe so the perpetrators of such indefensible acts cannot conceivably be still at large right?
 
I certainly hope so, unlike certain cult killings in New Jersey  where one or two perpetrators are convicted and the rest involved are not.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 10:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 10:34
I would like to add that metal attracts a younger audience for the most part and that is the demographic that actually forks out more money to buy music. Metal can be complex of course but most of it is fairly accessible and constructed for a younger audience. Why is bubblegum pop more successful than metal? Because it is even more attractive to an even younger audience whose parents spoil their kids with whatever their hearts desire. On the fllip side why is prog more successful than classical? Or is it? Well, seems like it is, because it has enough crossover appeal i guess. Oh, yeah and metal will always be more successful because of those armadillos in Spinal Tap's spandex 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 10:17
^As Don Corleone once said "it wasn't personal. It was just business."  Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 10:04
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

I do know for a fact that there were other cult related killings in Europe


And these incontrovertible facts have been relayed to the relevant law enforcement agencies in Europe so the perpetrators of such indefensible acts cannot conceivably be still at large right?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 09:52
In the 80's..I had friends in Metal bands who were trying desperately to write something demented and disturbing. They were trying a bit too hard to please the record company. There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing a dark piece with disturbing lyrics because maybe the person listening to it might think..."Wow, I didn't realize how bad witchcraft is and perhaps I will steer clear of it" Unfortunately children who are abused by their parents reach out for the dark lyricism and as a track record, follow the lyrics as a command in their personal life. The record companies didn't think about that did they? As I said before, the only problem with justice is Senator Gore's wife rubbing shoulders with the record executives and not supporting all important issues existing at the time of the "Satanic Panic" era. Apparently it wasn't in her best interest to bring justice to the record companies other than the conclusion of using album stickers...which was worse because it just made kids even more curious. Senator Gore was a huge Jethro Tull fan..so evidently he must have understood a lot more than he revealed which was not in his best interest...which also explains why the majority of the senate disagreed with Frank Zappa who was trying to use logic and personally disliked the government getting involved to begin with when Country songs revealed incest and murder over a sexual dispute in the lyrics and it just wasn't being addressed at all. ...As if to say that it was completely okay for the Country singer to continue producing lyrics on the subject, but it wasn't okay for Metal groups to do the same. That's not justice for the sake of justice, but justice for one genre of music to make yourself, the politician look important in the eyes of the older generations.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 09:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh,  for God's sake! Do members here really believe that the occult vibe of groups like Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult and crazy old Ozzy is anything more than a way to sell albums?
Perhaps it's because the recording industry is now a shadow of it's  former self that causes some members to forget the real agenda behind the veil of Satanism and the occult: Business! Business! Business!
 
(And business!)
 
Of course it was business! However...do you think that kids in the 80's and 90's thought about that? Because the answer is mostly no and the evidence that they were unaware or could care less was submitted to me when I played for these kinds of audiences. The recording industry knows that all too well and it's a means of exploiting the youth so that the "baby boomer" parents would hand out money for their kids. The kids may have bought the albums discreetly because it may have been forbidden by their parents, but the sales were skyrocketing and sh-t didn't hit the fan until kids turned up dead with pentagrams carved in their foreheads.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 09:21
Forgive me for bringing the subject matter of cults into this thread. I played for these audiences many years and my observation is that teenagers became obsessed with the lyricism in Metal first and that led them to a interest in the occult. Not much different than my uncles in the early 1930's , pointing their fingers at each other , pretending they were guns, and playing the pretend role of Al Capone. I am also specifically pointing out that this kind of reaction in teenagers regarding Metal was vast in the Eastern United States when I traveled. I do know for a fact that there were other cult related killings in Europe, but insist on basing my information solely on my experience in the U.S. and regret coming across as a "know it all" , if in fact I have. This vastness of cult related killings with all of it's news media coverage is a reality that would have never existed in Prog and that being one of the reasons why Metal has a reputation more vast than Prog could ever have.


Album covers by WASP caused friction in society when the connection between the kid's interest in Metal and "so called" commands from Metal songs to kill someone  were discovered. Generally..it was based around kids forming their own Satan cults and meeting in secret places. News reports and witnesses testimonies in the 80's and 90's defined the word confusion. For example, a victim's statement re-stated by a murderer after they were incarcerated. Things like..."Well the victim professed to sit upon the right hand side of Satan, rather than the left, shows that either the quotes were wrong, the victim was drugged or drunk, or had little real knowledge of demonology or what the hell they were doing.


The majority of these cult killings had little or nothing at all to do with the "Church Of Satan" or Satanism itself. It was all about revolting against the belief system within the "Church Of Satan". As stated many times in the past, the "Church Of Satan" had nothing to do with your spirit, Judeo-Christian concepts, demons or Gods. Many Satan cults formed by youths revolved around raising the dead, (so to speak) and there is no doubt that a wealthy and more organized Satan worshippers sect revolved around the same practices. They too...(in many cases) revolted against any organized cult where these concepts or belief's were forbidden. Regarding sacrifice of humans, these procedures were carefully planned out until a kid got sloppy revealing evidence to the police. Normally this wouldn't occur on a vast level, (as it did with the "Satanic Panic" conspiracy), until the youth were influenced by the lyricism of Metal .Usually if a child went missing and the police suspected foul play within a cult, the child would hardly ever surface again and the evidence  leading to a cult was largely circumstantial due to the caution that a cult applied when sacrificing a human. That particular caution is based on evidence left behind...which there is usually none powerful enough to convict anyone, as a cult is so very careful to not leave marks on a body that is discovered.


Edited by TODDLER - March 27 2015 at 09:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2015 at 09:16
^Whew! That's a relief! I was beginning to think I was surrounded by socialists until I realized that I wasn't in college any more. LOL
 
And yes, commodities like occult tinged metal from Iron Maiden to Slayer still sell, if a bit less, and always will.
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