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Topic ClosedPunk: A Logical Extension of Prog?

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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 09:35
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

1) Your endless fascination with Sting's idiotically titled song was another way for you avoid the true subject matter, which was simply that a majority of New Wave songs are lyrically inconsequential. Focusing on De do do do  cannot alter that perception, except, sadly, perhaps only to you.
You chose three songs to illustrate your point, I merely pointed out that IMO one of them didn't. You could have chosen any number of different songs - with Pop music (regardless of subgenre) it is like shooting fish in a barrel after all.
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 
2) How you interpret Brian's comments is of no concern to me as you clearly lack the insight to make that call.
I have read Brian's fly-by posts in numerous threads over the years and worked with him on the Xover team long enough to understand where he is coming from and what he is referring too. Only he can say if my "insight" has made an incorrect "call" here.
 
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

3) After reading post after post of your efforts to down play Punk as some kind of ultra short lived and inconsequential music craze that doesn't represent authentic Punk bands like the Ramones and Television is daft and does a disservice to groups such as the Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, et al. 
Being short-lived is a matter of record, most articles on Post-punk's emergence in 1977/8 talk of Punk's decline. I never said it was an inconsequential music craze, though it appears I cannot prevent you from inferring anything you care to imagine from the words I write. I believe that calling Television an "authentic Punk band" is daft since their music is a long way removed from authentic Punk.


I'm glad you're leaving, it now means that I don't have to.


Edited by Dean - March 12 2015 at 09:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 09:43
^Congratulations, you can continue to alter facts as fits PA demographics or for your own personal agendas.
 
What a sad way to feel happy.


Edited by SteveG - March 12 2015 at 09:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 11:40

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 12:39
Television punk? How daft! They only paved the way for the Punk.


Edited by SteveG - March 12 2015 at 12:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 13:18
*sigh*
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 13:33
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Forget about whether it "killed prog", which it didn't, it did digress or at least regress rock to a point of astounding if roughly-cut clarity.   There are a few rare instances of prog/art rockers dabbling in and
eventually turning to punk, such as the Goldring twins (Gnidrolog)
going on to become the Pork Dukes, and styles of progressive rock that
clearly draw from punk, like mathrock.   But was Punk rock a continuation of the development of rock as a from of music that apparently has few boundaries other than that it retain some semblance of a rock format?   Or was it just a crude rebellion that struck a chord in a lot of people?  

I believe Punk was a continuation of the basic elements existing within Rock music , but not developed through selective instrumentation or creative playing. Creative arty Punk did in fact exist, but it was shortened by the dominance of the song structure. A good example would be Hawkwind ...who have , in the past, recorded true Punk Rock songs. The influences on Punk were totally obvious. Surfin' Bird by The Trashmen is very Sex Pistols. Too Many Tear Drops by Question Mark and the Mysterians, MC5, early Alice Cooper...is all influential to Punk Rock, but sometimes people have a difficult time digesting the realization that Punk bands were influenced at all. Syd Barrett was a major influence ,but additionally influenced by Surf music and SciFi themes...like the Punks. It was very anti-hippie culture to promote an idea that wasn't cool in 1968. Something that was mocked and thought to be laughable by the hippies. Example....when The Sha-Na-Na played Woodstock and there were moans, booing, and less applauding. Regarding the influence of early 60's music existing in Punk, they obviously wanted to duplicate it's foundation through a more angry attitude.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 13:45
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Just to illustrate how the punk movement was big in my country and how much Punk was popular in former Yugoslavia, here's a feature film Dečko koji Obećava ("The Promising Boy") about the punk movement in former Yugoslavia that was a big hit in cinemas across the country in 1981: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZddmkTQsZaE (English subtitles, drama genre). The members of Belgrade's post-punk band Šarlo Akrobata - already in Prog Archives as an "avant-prog" act what always make me laugh - are also starring in this film. Released in 1981, it was one of the first feature films with the theme of Punk ever filmed. Not that much feature 'punk-movies' was filmed before Yugoslav "The Promising Boy", as e.g. British film Jubilee with Adam Ant from 1977, Rock'n'Roll Highschool, an American comedy with The Ramones from 1979, Dutch movie Cha Cha with Lene Lovich and Nina Hagen from 1979 and the British film Breaking Glass  with Hazel O'Connor from 1980.
In February 1981, one of the major record companies in former Yugoslavia, Jugoton, released a punk / post-punk compilation album titled Paket Aranžman ("Package Deal") with the songs of the most popular Yugoslav punk / post-punk bands; that album sold tremendously well to this day, as it reached a cult status.
 
Both mentioned film and the compilation were a final "victory" of Punk aesthetics here. As a music genre, Punk in my country represented a complete break with the Progressive rock because young bands were completely turned into punk and (or) post-punk. Progressive rock in my country has not yet recovered from Punk hysteria then gripped the former Yugoslavia in late 70s / early 80s. 
 
A few days ago, a former Yugoslav punk rocker (who also starring with his band in "The Promising Boy" the movie), Vlada Divljan from "Idoli" ("Idols") died by cancer at 57. As a young man he was one of the pioneers of the punk movement here, and the government is seriously considering to declare a day of mourning in the capital of Serbia. That's how big youth movement it was here.
Great post, comrade Svetonio! hey what about some LIVE FOOTAGE of 80s Yugoslavia post-punk grooves? it would be nice:
 
Nice video of EKV... However, as you know, it is a sad story with that band. It is worth to say that it was the Punk that bring heroin to Yugoslavia. All of them in that video, except the drummer, were destroyed themselfs with heroin and died one by one. Of course it was some heroin in Yugoslavia before the Punk hysteria, but these were isolated cases because the youngsters enjoyed hashish in 70s. With Punk, Yugoslavia was coming to an epidemic of young people death caused by intravenous use of heroin (overdose and AIDS).
Yes. Damn punks were so big snobs that they were rejected hashish and marijuana as "hippy stuff" and switch to their beloved heroin. Once a punker even told me, "without a needle in my vein, there's not a high for me." LOL
For the first time, it was "in" to be a junkie.
Last but not least, heroin was very expensive at that time and so many families went in poverty due to their kids who were "in" during punk hysteria in Yugoslavia.
Yea it was ridiculous and very sad. Belgrade's punks heard Heroin by The Velvet Underground for the first time in early 80 and promptly started to be *in* (junkies). There is a great Yugoslav feature film about that phenomena, released in 1984 and titled Pejzaži u magli ( "Landscapes In Fog"), with a soundtrack made by Yugoslav post-punk bands mainly.

Edited by Svetonio - March 12 2015 at 13:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 10:01
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Television punk? How daft! They only paved the way for the Punk
 
Dean wrote: *sigh*
 
.
For those that weren't born in and then resided in NYC and were familiar with the local music scenes, Television were quite a different band with Richard Hell as a member in their earlier incarnation. Quite different actually from what became their defining sound with Marquee Moon. But as the old saying goes, you had to be there.

Edited by SteveG - March 13 2015 at 10:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 11:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

For those that weren't born in and then resided in NYC and were familiar with the local music scenes, Television were quite a different band with Richard Hell as a member in their earlier incarnation. Quite different actually from what became their defining sound with Marquee Moon. But as the old saying goes, you had to be there.
Yup. And we cannot listen to a black and white photograph. Looking beyond the image, all we have from that time is Little Johnny Jewel, (admittedly recorded after Hell's departure), which doesn't sound like Punk or American Garage Rock either, nor is it reminiscent of Psych rock, even with the twanging bell-like extended guitar solo. 

The point you are trying to make here is not lost, it's just misdirected. Being formative on the Punk scene, and dressing in Punkish clothing, does not mean the music is Punk. Television were that rare commodity in music - original, and Marquee Moon proved to be a tough act to live up to, as the good but far from great Adventure proved.

Sure you had to be there, but like the hundreds of Brit Punks that claimed to have been at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall in June 1976, probably not that many were.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 13:59
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


^Are you really that impressed by a photograph?
And what did my post have to do with how they looked?
 
Jesus. Give it up already, you're still wrong.

YOU posted the picture, YOU wrote the caption. What ever was the point of YOU posting the picture if it wasn't to illustrate the caption?


Why are you still here? If you're going then go, if you're staying then stay.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:03
^Are you serious? What does a photo have to do with how a band sounds?
 
No wonder you're so lost on this subject.
 
I kept quiet while you babbled on about something you knew nothing about, or experienced first hand, until I got tired of it.
 
I actually hung out at clubs like Max's Kansas City and, yes, CBGBs, in the seventies and experienced these bands first hand, and many others that are pretty much lost to history.
 
Jesus. Give it up already. You're still wrong.
 


Edited by SteveG - March 13 2015 at 16:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:05
*sigh*

YOU posted the picture, not me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:09
^Yes, I posted it. But you commented on it.
 
So long Dean, and good luck.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:13
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

For those that weren't born in and then resided in NYC and were familiar with the local music scenes, Television were quite a different band with Richard Hell as a member in their earlier incarnation. Quite different actually from what became their defining sound with Marquee Moon. But as the old saying goes, you had to be there.
Yup. And we cannot listen to a black and white photograph. Looking beyond the image, all we have from that time is Little Johnny Jewel, (admittedly recorded after Hell's departure), which doesn't sound like Punk or American Garage Rock either, nor is it reminiscent of Psych rock, even with the twanging bell-like extended guitar solo. 


What about the Neon Boys single, recorded in 1972 and released in 1980?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 16:44
^Finally, someone with a clue but still not quite there. Neon Boys' Love Comes in Spurts (1973) channels the 13th Floor Elevators with reverb heavy guitars! Don't Die  is proto Ramones! Bravo! Well done! Clap  
There is hope, after all. I can leave with in peace.

Edited by SteveG - March 13 2015 at 16:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2015 at 05:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Finally, someone with a clue but still not quite there. Neon Boys' Love Comes in Spurts (1973) channels the 13th Floor Elevators with reverb heavy guitars! Don't Die  is proto Ramones! Bravo! Well done! Clap  
There is hope, after all. I can leave with in peace.
Confused Still doesn't make the music of Television Punk Rock. I have never denied that Television (and whatever Verlaine did prior to that) were formative on Punk Rock, or that Punk Rock is derived from American Psych Rock and American Garage Rock. But compare Television with all those "authentic" "real" Punk bands and there is no comparison.

5,000 miles to CBGBs was a bit too much of a commute for me, so yeah, I wasn't there. But venues in the UK were less of a trek, trips to the local record store were even easier, I could walk to the shops to buy the weekly music rags and reaching over to switch on the radio to listen to John Peel was hardly a stretch. Sure, I have no idea what any of those bands sounded like before they actually produced a record for anyone to hear, aside from the 150-200 people who could squeeze into a sweaty NY club, none of us could have heard them before then. You were one of those lucky few. Good for you. But to say I know nothing about that era and its music and didn't experience it first hand is another of those uninformed assumptions you are so crap at making. Sure all of the information I received of the NY scene was not experienced first-hand, it was second-hand knowledge filtered through the myopic eyes of British Rock press, John Peel, Jon Savage, Caroline Coon et al, and that in turn influenced my first hand experience of Punk Rock as it burgeoned onto the British music scene. Standing in Dingwalls in Camden Town or The Marquee in Wardor Street watching lesser known Punk bands whose names escape me and probably every other person who was there wasn't the same as being in CBGB or Max's Kansas City, it was a filtered, watered-down copy, but no less authentic. Just as watching kids in the provinces pick-up on that style of music in pubs and smaller clubs wasn't quite the same as being in those London clubs

Never-the-less I purchased the first four Television singles and the first two albums as soon as they were released (in 1977), and yup, that isn't the same as seeing them play live two or three years earlier, but that's the best I (or anyone else living anywhere else that isn't NY) could do. In fact that is all that a vast majority of people can ever do on any emergent music scene, or established music scene or dead and long forgotten music scene - all our knowledge and information is second-hand, much of that is anecdotal, based (and biased) on assumption and opinion and some of it is unsubstantiated or even apocryphal. All of it has the benefit (or hindrance) of hindsight and anything that dares to contradict the perception of it (received wisdom) is revisionist as a result of that. No one is an expert, everyone knows something and no one knows everything there is to know about any subject - even those who were there, either as passive observers or active participants, did not see the whole picture. 

Yes your knowledge of the NY scene is better informed than mine, you were there, I wasn't. That does not render my recollections and knowledge from that time moot or wrong. And yes, I've lost the "whatever the hell we are arguing about" is actually about because it seems to me we probably agree on the music of Television as displayed on Marquee Moon, that it is the exception that proves the rule in the truest meaning of that phrase, (where "prove" means "test"), it is an exception because it doesn't fit the rule. This is why I said talking about Television (and The Stranglers come to that) is irrelevant to the topic, a red herring.

So, go in peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2015 at 10:05
^ A class response. It would, in all fairness, be remiss if I didn't point out that I know little of the California Punk scene and the thousands of little US Punk enclaves, so first hand experience is all relative. I'm just tidying up a few loss ends before I jump a plane tomorrow into anonymity. Peace to you, also.

Edited by SteveG - March 14 2015 at 10:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2015 at 10:09
Yes, and as Svetonio has pointed out, all the punk scenes in other countries that neither of us have first hand knowledge off ... We can only see the whole picture from a distance, and that on this subject as many others, is the distance of time.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2015 at 10:28
There was Punk in other countries? Shocked 
 
Just kidding.
 
True words. Peace. Out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2015 at 11:01
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