Punk: A Logical Extension of Prog? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 12 2015 at 09:35 | |||
You chose three songs to illustrate your point, I merely pointed out that IMO one of them didn't. You could have chosen any number of different songs - with Pop music (regardless of subgenre) it is like shooting fish in a barrel after all.
I have read Brian's fly-by posts in numerous threads over the years and worked with him on the Xover team long enough to understand where he is coming from and what he is referring too. Only he can say if my "insight" has made an incorrect "call" here.
Being short-lived is a matter of record, most articles on Post-punk's emergence in 1977/8 talk of Punk's decline. I never said it was an inconsequential music craze, though it appears I cannot prevent you from inferring anything you care to imagine from the words I write. I believe that calling Television an "authentic Punk band" is daft since their music is a long way removed from authentic Punk. I'm glad you're leaving, it now means that I don't have to.
Edited by Dean - March 12 2015 at 09:38 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 12 2015 at 09:43 | |||
^Congratulations, you can continue to alter facts as fits PA demographics or for your own personal agendas.
What a sad way to feel happy.
Edited by SteveG - March 12 2015 at 09:52 |
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earlyprog
Collaborator Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2133 |
Posted: March 12 2015 at 11:40 | |||
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 12 2015 at 12:39 | |||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 12 2015 at 13:18 | |||
*sigh*
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: March 12 2015 at 13:33 | |||
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: March 12 2015 at 13:45 | |||
Edited by Svetonio - March 12 2015 at 13:45 |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 10:01 | |||
Edited by SteveG - March 13 2015 at 10:03 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 11:31 | |||
Yup. And we cannot listen to a black and white photograph. Looking beyond the image, all we have from that time is Little Johnny Jewel, (admittedly recorded after Hell's departure), which doesn't sound like Punk or American Garage Rock either, nor is it reminiscent of Psych rock, even with the twanging bell-like extended guitar solo. The point you are trying to make here is not lost, it's just misdirected. Being formative on the Punk scene, and dressing in Punkish clothing, does not mean the music is Punk. Television were that rare commodity in music - original, and Marquee Moon proved to be a tough act to live up to, as the good but far from great Adventure proved. Sure you had to be there, but like the hundreds of Brit Punks that claimed to have been at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall in June 1976, probably not that many were. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 13:59 | |||
YOU posted the picture, YOU wrote the caption. What ever was the point of YOU posting the picture if it wasn't to illustrate the caption? Why are you still here? If you're going then go, if you're staying then stay. |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:03 | |||
^Are you serious? What does a photo have to do with how a band sounds?
No wonder you're so lost on this subject. I kept quiet while you babbled on about something you knew nothing about, or experienced first hand, until I got tired of it. I actually hung out at clubs like Max's Kansas City and, yes, CBGBs, in the seventies and experienced these bands first hand, and many others that are pretty much lost to history. Jesus. Give it up already. You're still wrong. Edited by SteveG - March 13 2015 at 16:32 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:05 | |||
*sigh*
YOU posted the picture, not me. |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:09 | |||
^Yes, I posted it. But you commented on it.
So long Dean, and good luck. |
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Lŕ, sui monti. Status: Offline Points: 10841 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 14:13 | |||
What about the Neon Boys single, recorded in 1972 and released in 1980? |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 13 2015 at 16:44 | |||
^Finally, someone with a clue but still not quite there. Neon Boys' Love Comes in Spurts (1973) channels the 13th Floor Elevators with reverb heavy guitars! Don't Die is proto Ramones! Bravo! Well done! There is hope, after all.
I can leave with in peace.
Edited by SteveG - March 13 2015 at 16:48 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 14 2015 at 05:48 | |||
Still doesn't make the music of Television Punk Rock. I have never denied that Television (and whatever Verlaine did prior to that) were formative on Punk Rock, or that Punk Rock is derived from American Psych Rock and American Garage Rock. But compare Television with all those "authentic" "real" Punk bands and there is no comparison.
5,000 miles to CBGBs was a bit too much of a commute for me, so yeah, I wasn't there. But venues in the UK were less of a trek, trips to the local record store were even easier, I could walk to the shops to buy the weekly music rags and reaching over to switch on the radio to listen to John Peel was hardly a stretch. Sure, I have no idea what any of those bands sounded like before they actually produced a record for anyone to hear, aside from the 150-200 people who could squeeze into a sweaty NY club, none of us could have heard them before then. You were one of those lucky few. Good for you. But to say I know nothing about that era and its music and didn't experience it first hand is another of those uninformed assumptions you are so crap at making. Sure all of the information I received of the NY scene was not experienced first-hand, it was second-hand knowledge filtered through the myopic eyes of British Rock press, John Peel, Jon Savage, Caroline Coon et al, and that in turn influenced my first hand experience of Punk Rock as it burgeoned onto the British music scene. Standing in Dingwalls in Camden Town or The Marquee in Wardor Street watching lesser known Punk bands whose names escape me and probably every other person who was there wasn't the same as being in CBGB or Max's Kansas City, it was a filtered, watered-down copy, but no less authentic. Just as watching kids in the provinces pick-up on that style of music in pubs and smaller clubs wasn't quite the same as being in those London clubs. Never-the-less I purchased the first four Television singles and the first two albums as soon as they were released (in 1977), and yup, that isn't the same as seeing them play live two or three years earlier, but that's the best I (or anyone else living anywhere else that isn't NY) could do. In fact that is all that a vast majority of people can ever do on any emergent music scene, or established music scene or dead and long forgotten music scene - all our knowledge and information is second-hand, much of that is anecdotal, based (and biased) on assumption and opinion and some of it is unsubstantiated or even apocryphal. All of it has the benefit (or hindrance) of hindsight and anything that dares to contradict the perception of it (received wisdom) is revisionist as a result of that. No one is an expert, everyone knows something and no one knows everything there is to know about any subject - even those who were there, either as passive observers or active participants, did not see the whole picture. Yes your knowledge of the NY scene is better informed than mine, you were there, I wasn't. That does not render my recollections and knowledge from that time moot or wrong. And yes, I've lost the "whatever the hell we are arguing about" is actually about because it seems to me we probably agree on the music of Television as displayed on Marquee Moon, that it is the exception that proves the rule in the truest meaning of that phrase, (where "prove" means "test"), it is an exception because it doesn't fit the rule. This is why I said talking about Television (and The Stranglers come to that) is irrelevant to the topic, a red herring. So, go in peace. |
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 14 2015 at 10:05 | |||
^ A class response. It would, in all fairness, be remiss if I didn't point out that I know little of the California Punk scene and the thousands of little US Punk enclaves, so first hand experience is all relative. I'm just tidying up a few loss ends before I jump a plane tomorrow into anonymity. Peace to you, also.
Edited by SteveG - March 14 2015 at 10:26 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: March 14 2015 at 10:09 | |||
Yes, and as Svetonio has pointed out, all the punk scenes in other countries that neither of us have first hand knowledge off ... We can only see the whole picture from a distance, and that on this subject as many others, is the distance of time.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20604 |
Posted: March 14 2015 at 10:28 | |||
There was Punk in other countries?
Just kidding. True words. Peace. Out.
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earlyprog
Collaborator Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2133 |
Posted: March 14 2015 at 11:01 | |||
Inspirational
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