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Toaster Mantis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:13
I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:17
I never saw punk as an extension of anything but more as a rebellious juvenile delinquent version of basic rock and roll.
Wink
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:32
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc)
You are correct, but Dean sees bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators. So, the question now is: Who were these 'originators' then? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 15:33
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I never saw punk as an extension of anything but more as a rebellious juvenile delinquent version of basic rock and roll.
Wink
 
That's only because you are a man of good taste, Doc. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 17:08
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc)
You are correct, but Dean sees bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators. So, the question now is: Who were these 'originators' then? 


The Modern Lovers and the original Suicide, both back in 1970.

That or Dick Dale.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 18:11
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

I thought the predecessors to punk were more half the 1960s psychedelic garage rock scene that was later anthologized on the Nuggets compilation by Patti Smith cohort Lenny Kaye, the other half being the early-1970s glam rock movement's rawer end. (New York Dolls, Slade, The Sweet etc)
You are correct, but Dean sees bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators.
No he doesn't. 
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 19:55
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them?
Well, it certainly wasn't The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Dammed, The Ramones or Television.
 
 
Ok, Guv'nor, I give up then. 'Ello, 'Ello, 'Ello!

Edited by SteveG - March 06 2015 at 20:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 20:18
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Post punk, eh? Ok, that makes sense. But who were the real Punks then? And what became of them?
Well, it certainly wasn't The Sex Pistols, The Clash, The Dammed, The Ramones or Television.
 
 
Ok, Guv'nor, I give up. Ello,Ello.
Yup. You are getting real good at quoting posts. Shame they do not illustrate the point you are trying to make. That quote does not say, or even fncking imply, that I saw "bands like Television as followers and not the Punk originators."


There is a difference between real punks and those who originated punk. Television were instrumental in the formation of the New York punk scene but the music they played and especially what they recorded on their début album was not Real Punk, it wasn't even Punk:

Originally posted by wikipedia wikipedia wrote:

According to Rolling Stone magazine, Marquee Moon is a post-punk album, while Jason Heller of The A.V. Club described it as an "elegantly jagged art-punk opus". Robert Christgau felt it was more of a rock record because of Television's formal and technical abilities as musicians: "it wasn't punk. Its intensity wasn't manic; it didn't come in spurts." Both sides of the album begin with three shorter, hook-driven songs, which Stylus Magazine's Evan Chakroff said veer between progressive rock and post-punk styles. The title track and "Torn Curtain" are longer and more jam-oriented. Verlaine later said in an interview for Select magazine, "As peculiar as it sounds, I've always thought that we were a pop band. You know, I always thought Marquee Moon was a bunch of cool singles. And then I'd realise, Christ, [the title track] is ten minutes long. With two guitar solos."

What is Real Punk about that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 20:29
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

There is a difference between real punks and those who originated punk. Television were instrumental in the formation of the New York punk scene but the music they played and especially what they recorded on their début album was not Real Punk, it wasn't even Punk:

Originally posted by wikipedia wikipedia wrote:

According to Rolling Stone magazine, Marquee Moon is a post-punk album, while Jason Heller of The A.V. Club described it as an "elegantly jagged art-punk opus". Robert Christgau felt it was more of a rock record because of Television's formal and technical abilities as musicians: "it wasn't punk. Its intensity wasn't manic; it didn't come in spurts." Both sides of the album begin with three shorter, hook-driven songs, which Stylus Magazine's Evan Chakroff said veer between progressive rock and post-punk styles. The title track and "Torn Curtain" are longer and more jam-oriented. Verlaine later said in an interview for Select magazine, "As peculiar as it sounds, I've always thought that we were a pop band. You know, I always thought Marquee Moon was a bunch of cool singles. And then I'd realise, Christ, [the title track] is ten minutes long. With two guitar solos."

What is Real Punk about that?

Marquee Moon definitely gives label-happy types headaches; while Television started off playing punk back in the early '70's - Richard Hell being in the band at the time, no less - for the debut the guitar lines instead borrowed from the kind of interplay typically inherent in jazz and lacked the particular power chords punk almost always thrives on.

So, rather than being punk or any kind of ___-punk, you could probably call it some experimental alt rock.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:09
As to who the 'original' punks might have been in the UK (or if anyone really cares as Dean has already stated, their music had all the staying power of a soap bubble) Maybe: Slaughter & the Dogs, Chelsea (circa Right to Work), Siouxsie & the Banshees (the unsigned incarnation with Sid Vicious on drums), the Damned (circa New Rose), Stiff Little Fingers, the Adverts, UK Subs, the Saints (albeit relocated from Australia), Discharge, Generation X (with Billy Idol), Buzzcocks (circa Orgasm Addict), the Subway Sect and erm...the Cortinas?! All were unstintingly s.h.i.t.e and that's probably also true for their US equivalents. (that's NOT the likes of the Stooges, MC5, VU etc as I can see the vestiges of their influence in all rock bands) I mean audible mucus like the Dead Boys, the Ramones, the Misfits, the Lurkers, Black Flag etc
All said and done, Punk was more about a confrontational take on activism than any enduring musical legacy. It's year zero Maoist fervour was valuable in as much as it prepared the soil for the real musical seeds to bloom into the fragrant bouquet of Post Punk (probably my favourite time period in music)

I've posted this quote before but just for the sake of clarity:

Tom Verlaine felt Television were not part of any so-called punk movement. "We felt outside of that," he says. "I don't think any of those bands (Patti Smith, Blondie, Talking Heads, Voidoids) were punk and everybody knows they're not punk so it's kind of a dead issue. Nobody calls those bands punk, outside of maybe the Ramones."





Edited by ExittheLemming - March 06 2015 at 21:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:30
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

All said and done, Punk was more about a confrontational take on activism than any enduring musical legacy. It's year zero Maoist fervour was valuable in as much as it prepared the soil for the real musical seeds to take root and bloom into the bouquet of Post Punk (probably my favourite time period in music)

Nice.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:35
No.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:37
Originally posted by Ozark Soundscape Ozark Soundscape wrote:

No.
ClapClapClap
There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:38
Just to illustrate how the punk movement was big in my country and how much Punk was popular in former Yugoslavia, here's a feature film Dečko koji Obećava ("The Promising Boy") about the punk movement in former Yugoslavia that was a big hit in cinemas across the country in 1981: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZddmkTQsZaE (English subtitles, drama genre). The members of Belgrade's post-punk band Šarlo Akrobata - already in Prog Archives as an "avant-prog" act what always make me laugh - are also starring in this film. Released in 1981, it was one of the first feature films with the theme of Punk ever filmed. Not that much feature 'punk-movies' was filmed before Yugoslav "The Promising Boy", as e.g. British film Jubilee with Adam Ant from 1977, Rock'n'Roll Highschool, an American comedy with The Ramones from 1979, Dutch movie Cha Cha with Lene Lovich and Nina Hagen from 1979 and the British film Breaking Glass  with Hazel O'Connor from 1980.
In February 1981, one of the major record companies in former Yugoslavia, Jugoton, released a punk / post-punk compilation album titled Paket Aranžman ("Package Deal") with the songs of the most popular Yugoslav punk / post-punk bands; that album sold tremendously well to this day, as it reached a cult status.
 
Both mentioned film and the compilation were a final "victory" of Punk aesthetics here. As a music genre, Punk in my country represented a complete break with the Progressive rock because young bands were completely turned into punk and (or) post-punk. Progressive rock in my country has not yet recovered from Punk hysteria then gripped the former Yugoslavia in late 70s / early 80s. 
 
A few days ago, a former Yugoslav punk rocker (who also starring with his band in "The Promising Boy" the movie), Vlada Divljan from "Idoli" ("Idols") died by cancer at 57. As a young man he was one of the pioneers of the punk movement here, and the government is seriously considering to declare a day of mourning in the capital of Serbia. That's how big youth movement it was here.


Edited by Svetonio - March 07 2015 at 03:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:53
Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.
 
 
P.S. and to the OPs query, no, punk was neither logical nor an extension of prog. It was the antithesis of prog, and also the corporate rock/AOR crap that was eating up more and more radio airtime.


Edited by The Dark Elf - March 06 2015 at 22:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 21:56
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.

Not from the Stone. It took a loooong time for the Stone to warm up to rock that didn't have any remnants of the blues in it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 22:07
Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.

Not from the Stone. It took a loooong time for the Stone to warm up to rock that didn't have any remnants of the blues in it.
Patti Smith, The Ramones, Blondie and Television all got very favorable reviews from RS at the time. As long as punk was from the NY scene, it received good reviews. I don't recall how RS responded to British punk, however.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 06 2015 at 22:22
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Lear'sFool Lear'sFool wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Coming from Detroit, "punk" was old hat by 1976. The MC5 and Iggy and the Stooges, one politically motivated and the other anarchic and nihilistic, covered the same ground as the alleged punks but at much higher decibels. The New York scene was only fashionable because of free advertising from critics on The Village Voice and Rolling Stone.

Not from the Stone. It took a loooong time for the Stone to warm up to rock that didn't have any remnants of the blues in it.
Patti Smith, The Ramones, Blondie and Television all got very favorable reviews from RS at the time. As long as punk was from the NY scene, it received good reviews. I don't recall how RS responded to British punk, however.
 

Marquee Moon got props from Stone because, as I mentioned earlier, the standard punk sound just was not there. The magazine also had a love-hate relationship with Blondie, being that while, again, not the usual punk, their albums did fluctuate in quality.

Meanwhile, they trashed the self-titled releases from the New York Dolls and Suicide, were lukewarm towards VU, didn't even like Lou Reed's Transformer, let alone Berlin, and have even to this day ignored The Dictators.

Horses and Ramones were the first times they ever gave any punk, let alone NYC punk, a favourable ear. Even then, once the Sex Pistols blew up England for a time, the mag still found itself playing catch-up for awhile, as is now custom for them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 05:37
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Punk in general was the last big movement of youth.
As a sub-genre of rock music, it was anti-prog more than anything else.
LOL Punk was not a big youth movement. LOL

There is no denying that it had far-reaching affect on the music scene but it was a relatively small genre of music followed by a relatively small number of people over a very brief period of time. 

Those most affected by it were the music journalists whose written "history" of this time many people today get their perceptions from. The music-makers followed on from that, they were not going to create and promote music that these journalists would not write about, but these music-makers (and by that, the music industry) did not start producing Punk Rock as a result of that.

By a process that evolutionary biologists call punctuated equilibrium the advent of the Punk ethos within the music scene created a step-change that found a new stable equilibrium state that bore no relation to the trigger that Punk instigated. This stable state was what we called at the time New Wave and encompassed a wide gamut of music subgenres that were more readily adopted by a larger proportion of youth than Punk had managed to reach, many of these emergent subgenres were themselves the antithesis of Punk. Even bands that had been closely associated with the Punk movement of 1976 were quick to create post-punk new-wave music that had no direct relationship with Punk Rock. It is this post-punk new-wave ethos that many pre-punk musicians adopted, if not wholly musically, at least in style, image and attitude - if only as a result of getting their hair cut short, wearing narrow trousers and thin ties. While it was amusing to see Peter Gabriel perform a Punk version of White Shade Of Pale on stage, the stripped-back music he recorded on his albums owed more to applying New Wave attitudes to his Progressive music background than any slim-pickings he could glean from Punk Rock. 


 
WOW that's a really great post although my own experience growing up at the time was that punk was exciting because it had energy while New Wave was a bit of a yawn to me. I loved ELP at the time because they were exciting and energetic ( based admittedly on earlier albums not Works)  and I saw much to like in The Sex Pistols for the same reasons. However the whole ethos that surrounded punk stunk to high heaven (imo) and New Wave as you suggest had the sort of commercial future that punk didn't.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2015 at 06:13
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

However the whole ethos that surrounded punk stunk to high heaven (imo)


Notwithstanding the engineered spin contributed by opportunists like Malcolm McLaren, Richard Hell, Anya Phillips et al what guiding beliefs or ideals (ethos) did you have an issue with that surrounded Punk?
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