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Topic ClosedWhy old prog - for me - is better than new prog

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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 11:44
In the end the test of time will speak.
For the moment, i see that people still make polls and Top 10 threads about the classics. If I look at some of the Top 3 albums of recent years, they were a hype when they came out but people rarely speak about them anymore here. I seem to feel a sense of volatility in the current top prog, but don't shoot me for that, again, time will tell and I may well be wrong, and some modern acts have indeed earned their place in the timeless (well, at least long term) 'Proglovers' hall of fame'.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 12:46
A majority of music fans and musicians have a more "step up and get it done quickly" kind of attitude and we all are aware that this develops strongly when exposed to the lifestyle of modern technology. Technology has caused our music to sound much finer and I appreciate that above and beyond, but the times we were living in during the 60's and 70's would draw musicians to different sources. Many great "ROCK" songs that contained the most beautiful 3 verses, bridge, instrumental break, chorus..were composed in strange but beautiful environmental surroundings. Today..we still have the artist who desires to compose a piece with those surroundings, runs back to the studio and records it...however there is something missing and very wrong with it and I am unsure what precisely it is. It feels as if the process has become infected with some sort of fungus that is dangerous to music composition.

 
When musicians of the 60's and 70's took small tape recorders outdoors to record the sounds of nature...they were later filtered through a mix of the studio recording. The hiss of the non-direct ocean recording was taken away so the Progressive Rock or Electronic album sounded realistic with nature's sounds  blending in with the music. Even though this may remain to be a dated experimentation method, there was something educational about the experience itself that DOESN'T seem to exist as much in music today. Musicians are not as in touch with their feelings to compose by limiting their interest to do other things that now seem laughable to them because they have technology....but all along this journey I've noticed something missing in music...in general..and this aspect is a great part of it.

In Jurassic Park...a computer geek is telling Dr. Grant that in a few years we won't even have to dig anymore and Dr. Grant says: "Where's the fun in that?" As being the most pathetic example I can give, it is that way in reality. Music has taken on a entire different generation of people in recent years that focus on product created through the abilities and accomplishments of technology and that alone...has caused a majority of musicians to be dismissive of what they define as "old methods", dried up methods, old school methods. If you want to dismiss something LIKE a method based on it's immediate lack in face value because technology is better for your life, you are turning your back on creativity and having disrespect for the possibilities of creating true art and NEW art. Art that perhaps should have been created in 1989, but wasn't because society was beginning the push button concept and that ruled over everyone's choice on how to form art structure in music.


 No method is dated. It must be investigated and experienced first..in order to make a harsh decision of completely dismissing it or going with the flow of most people being dismissive of it. That's not the noble process of education at any length. For example: In Japan there is more of a breakdown method for mathematics and in the American "middle school" students are introduced to various methods before they understand a basic form of math such as division or multiplication. Many of these breakdown methods were defined as "short cuts" that many of us used in class , (in my case), during the 60's and 70's. At the time they were forbidden as such that you might get an F on your test if the teacher caught you using them. It has been suggested by the American government and enforced by our president to induct these methods into the teachings of math in the American school system. By dismissing older methods of problem solving...a part of your brain is no longer working. You can find answers to math problems , but you are no longer having the same educational process which...breaks you away from something vital to a specific aspect to math. First you're doing it one way...and now you are doing it another. It's basic and simple to understand, but it has it's limitations in educating a child's overall understanding of a subject. This has occurred greatly with music in the last 10 years and that being the reason why older Prog is better for me...with the exceptions of certain new underground Prog bands...that is the way I feel.    


Edited by TODDLER - January 15 2015 at 12:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 12:51
^I'm not sure what you mean by this Todd. Is technology deluding composition and, as a result, modern music?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:03
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I'm not sure what you mean by this Todd. Is technology deluding composition and, as a result, modern music?
 
Yes, because it brings limitations to the possibilities of creating music that is unique. Not in all cases, but in most. I've been in and out of recording studios over the last 20 years and it's pretty evident that people take music less seriously when a computer is in front of them. They also tend to take much for granted...which is why if Jimi Hendrix and Mike Oldfield were teenagers in 2015 and had the same mindset for creativity..as they did when they wrote their best albums, they would not be able to tolerate what studio techs and their computer related dribble have on the agenda for their recordings. All that sort of sincere creativity and the innocence of it is vanishing quickly over time because of the modern age.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:04
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

(Oh dear, stirring the pot here !! )

Hi folks, and now !! A thread where I tell you why - for me - old prog is better than new prog. Really simple reason....

Association.

When I stick on "Dark Side", I'm sitting around at my uncles' house in 1975 with a Mathmos oil lamp on. I stick on King Crimson, and I'm back with my mates in the early 1980's, smashed out of my mind and talking complete gibberish in a selection of grotty flats in Manchester at 2am.
I put on something like Hawkwind and I'm back at UMIST rock night with my mates in the mid 80-'s, full of beer and, er, herbal tobacco, officer. 

And so it goes. Not just the music but the memories. I am knocking on the door of 50, so I have very few associative memories concerning "new prog". Really, it's not just about the music but the scene that the music evokes. 


Some of the older tunes are truly excellent. One thing that has improved with time though is the musicianship of the youngsters. They seem able to play faster, with more accuracy and greater flare over the last few years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:05
the means justifies the end
"I know one thing: that I know nothing"

- SpongeBob Socrates
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:07
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I'm not sure what you mean by this Todd. Is technology deluding composition and, as a result, modern music?
 
Yes, because it brings limitations to the possibilities of creating music that is unique. Not in all cases, but in most. I've been in and out of recording studios over the last 20 years and it's pretty evident that people take music less seriously when a computer is in front of them. They also tend to take much for granted...which is why if Jimi Hendrix and Mike Oldfield were teenagers in 2015 and had the same mindset for creativity..as they did when they wrote their best albums, they would not be able to tolerate what studio techs and their computer related dribble have on the agenda for their recordings. All that sort of sincere creativity and the innocence of it is vanishing quickly over time because of the modern age.   
Ok, yes. I agree with you on that. Auto tune killed the rock musician.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:11
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I'm not sure what you mean by this Todd. Is technology deluding composition and, as a result, modern music?
 
Yes, because it brings limitations to the possibilities of creating music that is unique. Not in all cases, but in most. I've been in and out of recording studios over the last 20 years and it's pretty evident that people take music less seriously when a computer is in front of them. They also tend to take much for granted...which is why if Jimi Hendrix and Mike Oldfield were teenagers in 2015 and had the same mindset for creativity..as they did when they wrote their best albums, they would not be able to tolerate what studio techs and their computer related dribble have on the agenda for their recordings. All that sort of sincere creativity and the innocence of it is vanishing quickly over time because of the modern age.   
Ok, yes. I agree with you on that. Auto tune killed the rock musician.

Until you go further afield.
Look at the Prog explosion in Poland.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:11
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

(Oh dear, stirring the pot here !! )

Hi folks, and now !! A thread where I tell you why - for me - old prog is better than new prog. Really simple reason....

Association.

When I stick on "Dark Side", I'm sitting around at my uncles' house in 1975 with a Mathmos oil lamp on. I stick on King Crimson, and I'm back with my mates in the early 1980's, smashed out of my mind and talking complete gibberish in a selection of grotty flats in Manchester at 2am.
I put on something like Hawkwind and I'm back at UMIST rock night with my mates in the mid 80-'s, full of beer and, er, herbal tobacco, officer. 

And so it goes. Not just the music but the memories. I am knocking on the door of 50, so I have very few associative memories concerning "new prog". Really, it's not just about the music but the scene that the music evokes. 


Some of the older tunes are truly excellent. One thing that has improved with time though is the musicianship of the youngsters. They seem able to play faster, with more accuracy and greater flare over the last few years.
This is a fact that inspires John Petrucci to practice when ever he has just only a few free minutes available to him. Kids have advanced ten fold in 30 years in regards to skill and virtuosity. Amazing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:14
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^I'm not sure what you mean by this Todd. Is technology deluding composition and, as a result, modern music?
 
Yes, because it brings limitations to the possibilities of creating music that is unique. Not in all cases, but in most. I've been in and out of recording studios over the last 20 years and it's pretty evident that people take music less seriously when a computer is in front of them. They also tend to take much for granted...which is why if Jimi Hendrix and Mike Oldfield were teenagers in 2015 and had the same mindset for creativity..as they did when they wrote their best albums, they would not be able to tolerate what studio techs and their computer related dribble have on the agenda for their recordings. All that sort of sincere creativity and the innocence of it is vanishing quickly over time because of the modern age.   
Ok, yes. I agree with you on that. Auto tune killed the rock musician.

Until you go further afield.
Look at the Prog explosion in Poland.
To be fair, Todd and I are discussing U.S. musicians in regard to composing and recording. Modern tech takes a lot of the ingenuity out of the creative process, IMHO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:14
When you are in the studio and an idea enters your mind, but your fellow musician is using the cell phone, how will you express the idea during the actual event of the idea? Wait until they get off the cell phone? That's actually a moment in time that has just been missed and it's not practical for a good musician to wait for his band member to get off the phone. That's not how art works. A sound tech who misunderstands your demands of a mix or your desire for  a final take..because they are texting, is not a sincere working process for art. People walking around the studio chatting on cell phones when they should be focusing on what's being created in that studio. When Wakeman, Anderson, Bruford, Squire, and Howe wrote the group effort pieces for Fragile..nothing was said, (according to Wakeman), it just all happened naturally and this modern age didn't exist and therefore ...no distractions to take away from a private rehearsal where true art is being formed.

Edited by TODDLER - January 15 2015 at 13:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 13:18
^And realistically, that could happen again if you had a group of improvisational musicains that left their cell phones in their cars. It only takes a certain amount of discipline.

Edited by SteveG - January 15 2015 at 13:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 15:12
But I don't think it's about Prog only. Frankly, I find the Pop songs from the late 60's and 70's better songs than current Pop songs, in general. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2015 at 15:15
^I agree 150 percent as a friend of mine used to say.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 00:47
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

But I don't think it's about Prog only. Frankly, I find the Pop songs from the late 60's and 70's better songs than current Pop songs, in general. 

It cannot be compared, can it, because back in 60 - 70's (and until the end of 80's) what was called "pop" included many kind of songs, from "social gathering" where music didn't really matter (the main purpose being to dynamise a social event and dictate a social trend) to personal songs made for a careful listen.

Now what's called pop has become a very precisely defined genre of "social gathering" kind.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:13
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

But I don't think it's about Prog only. Frankly, I find the Pop songs from the late 60's and 70's better songs than current Pop songs, in general. 

As there are only seven notes, the best melodies would have been discovered firstly.
Looking at your reasoning Beethoven and Mozart had the best tunes!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:18
There are plenty of bands that record on computers that don't quantize and don't compress it all to hell. Even though I like those bands too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:45
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

But I don't think it's about Prog only. Frankly, I find the Pop songs from the late 60's and 70's better songs than current Pop songs, in general. 

As there are only seven notes, the best melodies would have been discovered firstly.
Looking at your reasoning Beethoven and Mozart had the best tunes!
that was your reasoning not mine
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 03:54
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

There are plenty of bands that record on computers that don't quantize and don't compress it all to hell. Even though I like those bands too.
There are already some great prog rock albums that are made on computers. For example, I like so much this album by your neighbor Dan Castello aka Onevoice; a really great album indeed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2015 at 06:43
Originally posted by Roxbrough Roxbrough wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

But I don't think it's about Prog only. Frankly, I find the Pop songs from the late 60's and 70's better songs than current Pop songs, in general. 

As there are only seven notes, the best melodies would have been discovered firstly.
Looking at your reasoning Beethoven and Mozart had the best tunes!


Mercifully, both Beethoven and Mozart knew there were 11 notes in western diatonic music (and countless more in other cultures and microntonal music)
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