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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:10
That might be a Western/rock thing (re preference for high pitched vocals).   In India/Pakistan, baritones were more popular for the longest time and if errmm there were enough decent ones today, they probably still would be more popular.  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, one of Jeff Buckley's inspirations, tended to sing pretty high but the famous ghazal greats Mehdi Hassan and Ghulam Ali were/are baritones and most of our Hindustani classical singers are as well.  I love a great baritone like Jim Morrison too, wish there could have been more of them in rock.  

Strangely enough, in the sub continent, female singers, whether in film playback or classical music, earned a lot of respect for their talents and looks played a negligible role, if at all, for the most part.  It should have been even more difficult for them to succeed given that the males sang lower than male singers in the West.  But listeners here are not so quick to presume that a band/composer must have hired a female singer for her looks as I have sometimes found to be the case in rock.  


Edited by rogerthat - December 11 2014 at 11:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:19
Yup, bunch of her solo stuff from the 90s, in fact.  Sadly not Annie in Wonderland or Still Life as it seems she doesn't own the rights to those albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:56
Frickin' record industry...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 18:07
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

We (as listeners) often tend to prefer singers who sing in a higher-register regardless of our own gender, for example Robert Plant, Matt Bellamy, Thijs van Leer, Jon Anderson, Jeff Buckley, etc., are popular high-octave male singers, but we don't mistake them for females. However, this preference does favour female singers and I think that many of the female-fronted rock bands would be less popular if they had male singers. 
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

That might be a Western/rock thing (re preference for high pitched vocals).   In India/Pakistan, baritones were more popular for the longest time and if errmm there were enough decent ones today, they probably still would be more popular.  Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, one of Jeff Buckley's inspirations, tended to sing pretty high but the famous ghazal greats Mehdi Hassan and Ghulam Ali were/are baritones and most of our Hindustani classical singers are as well.  I love a great baritone like Jim Morrison too, wish there could have been more of them in rock.  

It's very likely a Western thing, and it follows on from classical vocals in an interesting way. In general, we prefer high/tenor male vocals, yes, but low/alto female vocals, so basically a preference for the middle of the band overall. In classical music prior to the 19th century, the preference was for the extremes- the male lead was usually a bass, the female a soprano (or a male castrato or countertenor). In the early 19th century, as castrati fell out of favour, the strong tenor chest voice (with little coloratura/ornamentation) rose as the main heroic voice, a stark contrast, and it more or less remains the preference in male vocals to this day. Obviously the soprano remained the preferential female vocal type in classical music- maybe the widespread preference changed to alto with the popularity of female blues singers, who had always sung low? But certainly any soprano-esque female in modern popular music will likely receive the usual shouts of 'shrill', 'screechy', and so on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 18:34
Freddie Mercury of course Beer
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 22:00
Originally posted by Kazza3 Kazza3 wrote:

It's very likely a Western thing, and it follows on from classical vocals in an interesting way. In general, we prefer high/tenor male vocals, yes, but low/alto female vocals, so basically a preference for the middle of the band overall. In classical music prior to the 19th century, the preference was for the extremes- the male lead was usually a bass, the female a soprano (or a male castrato or countertenor). In the early 19th century, as castrati fell out of favour, the strong tenor chest voice (with little coloratura/ornamentation) rose as the main heroic voice, a stark contrast, and it more or less remains the preference in male vocals to this day. Obviously the soprano remained the preferential female vocal type in classical music- maybe the widespread preference changed to alto with the popularity of female blues singers, who had always sung low? But certainly any soprano-esque female in modern popular music will likely receive the usual shouts of 'shrill', 'screechy', and so on.

Yes, that's another interesting aspect.  Here, the contrast between a baritone male and a soprano female is preferred, especially in duets.  I noticed that when Wonder and Whitney Houston sang together on We Didn't Know, they sang in the same octave whereas typically the female singer in an Indian duet would sing one octave higher.  It wasn't always the case. Before the 1950s, we had bass baritone males and alto females.  In the 1950s, this moved up to baritones and sopranos.  Today, it's a bit more muddled but there are still more soprano than alto females.  

It may be that when a guy reacts in a somewhat sexist way to a female singer, he may be subconsciously projecting his discomfort with an extremely high pitched voice.  Add that to the traditional male centric viewpoint that it is the woman who must submit and follow the will of society (imposed by males), and it is easy to draw a conclusion that the woman is doing something wrong simply by singing in her natural range.  That is NOT my position, by the by, before I become the unwitting target of anybody incensed by the last statement; just pondering as to the roots of sexism in music.  


Edited by rogerthat - December 11 2014 at 22:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 22:16
Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

drum machine? I doubt that Phil Collins who is foremost a brilliant drummer would be content with anything not real sounding like a drum machine. Confused  


And yet, he was. Smile  "Duke was the real transition from their 1970s progressive rock sound to the 1980s pop era.<sup id="cite_ref-mojo07_28-2" ="reference">[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_%28band%29#cite_note-mojo07-28" rel="nofollow]<span>[</span>28<span>]</span>[/URL]
The use of a drum machine became a consistent element on subsequent
Genesis albums, as well as on Collins's solo releases. The first Genesis
song to feature a drum machine was the Duke track "Duchess". The more commercial Duke was well received by the mainstream media, and was the band's first UK number one album, while the tracks "Misunderstanding" and "Turn It On Again" became live performance favourites. The drum machine Roland CR-78 that Collins used to make the sound effects on Duke, his first solo album Face Value, and the Brand X song "Wall to Wall" was also used on Phillips' album 1984 in 1981."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_%28band%29

Phil Collins is a good drummer, but the repetitive nature of the drum machine altered Genesis' music, and not in a way that I like.  Don't get me wrong, I still find some of the stuff catchy, I just don't put it in the same category.

And now the topic is way off the rails.


This drum machine thing is perhaps the main reason I like many of the 80's Genesis songs better live. They sound less plastic, more alive, and the drumming is perhaps the main reason for that (actually I also often like 70's live Genesis better than studio, but that's not because of the drum machine, certainly).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2014 at 18:26
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Kazza3 Kazza3 wrote:

It's very likely a Western thing, and it follows on from classical vocals in an interesting way. In general, we prefer high/tenor male vocals, yes, but low/alto female vocals, so basically a preference for the middle of the band overall. In classical music prior to the 19th century, the preference was for the extremes- the male lead was usually a bass, the female a soprano (or a male castrato or countertenor). In the early 19th century, as castrati fell out of favour, the strong tenor chest voice (with little coloratura/ornamentation) rose as the main heroic voice, a stark contrast, and it more or less remains the preference in male vocals to this day. Obviously the soprano remained the preferential female vocal type in classical music- maybe the widespread preference changed to alto with the popularity of female blues singers, who had always sung low? But certainly any soprano-esque female in modern popular music will likely receive the usual shouts of 'shrill', 'screechy', and so on.

Yes, that's another interesting aspect.  Here, the contrast between a baritone male and a soprano female is preferred, especially in duets.  I noticed that when Wonder and Whitney Houston sang together on We Didn't Know, they sang in the same octave whereas typically the female singer in an Indian duet would sing one octave higher.  It wasn't always the case. Before the 1950s, we had bass baritone males and alto females.  In the 1950s, this moved up to baritones and sopranos.  Today, it's a bit more muddled but there are still more soprano than alto females.  

It may be that when a guy reacts in a somewhat sexist way to a female singer, he may be subconsciously projecting his discomfort with an extremely high pitched voice.  Add that to the traditional male centric viewpoint that it is the woman who must submit and follow the will of society (imposed by males), and it is easy to draw a conclusion that the woman is doing something wrong simply by singing in her natural range.  That is NOT my position, by the by, before I become the unwitting target of anybody incensed by the last statement; just pondering as to the roots of sexism in music.  
Well, as a soprano I can confirm that this is true, unfortunately. People don't want a soprano singing in a band, but when they sing classical music it's almost the other way around. In the beginning, I even tried to deny the fact that I was a soprano because I knew in the world of modern music we're not really welcome. But now I think a soprano voice is beautiful. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2014 at 21:47
Christina Booth
............alright, that's enough of that.........
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2014 at 23:03
Originally posted by TheRollingOrange TheRollingOrange wrote:

Well, as a soprano I can confirm that this is true, unfortunately. People don't want a soprano singing in a band, but when they sing classical music it's almost the other way around. In the beginning, I even tried to deny the fact that I was a soprano because I knew in the world of modern music we're not really welcome. But now I think a soprano voice is beautiful. 

The decline of folk music also has something to do with it.  Some of the great female prog singers of the 70s were basically folk singers - Annie Haslam, Maddy Prior, Jacqui McShee.  They all sang in the soprano/mezzo range, likewise Joni Mitchell.  As popular music came to be dominated by electric guitar and hard, rocking beats, it probably narrowed the 'preferred range' within which singers are expected to operate, zeroing in on the tenor range almost to the exclusion of everything else.  There used to be the occasional baritones like Mark Knopfler and Chris Rea but not too many of those either these days.  Over a period of time, the diversity of voices in popular music has reduced as the audience gets increasingly specific in their expectations.


Edited by rogerthat - December 12 2014 at 23:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 03:51
I should point out that when I referred to high-octave singers I was meaning mezzo-soprano where there is naturally overlap between male and female vocal range (Tori Amos, Sharon den Adel, Simone Simons, Matt Bellamy, Robert Plant etc.) not soprano's like Sally Oldfield, Liv Kristine or Tarja Turunen - Kate Bush and Annie Haslam can hit the notes but they don't live there, male singers only enter the soprano range in falsetto.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 04:02
I would certainly classify Kate and Annie as sopranos; they can and have sung entire tracks in a soprano range.  But, unlike somebody like Tarja, they can blend it well with a strong chest voice and get pretty low (for a soprano), so using that part of their range rounds out their singing well.   I have not heard enough of Sally Oldfield to judge whether her chest voice was powerful and whether she hit low chest notes often in her tracks.  
Put that way to me, I would also have to say I would find a singer singing only in the above C5 bracket all the time boring...unless she can introduce a lot of dynamics and variation to make it lively.  And even then, C5 to C6 just becomes too narrow a bracket to focus on.  I don't discriminate that way.  I get tired of Bruce Dickinson after a while because he can't seem to get enough of hammering that B4 with thunderous power.  It's nice to hear that the first time but I start wishing he would explore his range more.     


Edited by rogerthat - December 13 2014 at 04:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 04:18
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by TheRollingOrange TheRollingOrange wrote:

Well, as a soprano I can confirm that this is true, unfortunately. People don't want a soprano singing in a band, but when they sing classical music it's almost the other way around. In the beginning, I even tried to deny the fact that I was a soprano because I knew in the world of modern music we're not really welcome. But now I think a soprano voice is beautiful. 

The decline of folk music also has something to do with it.  Some of the great female prog singers of the 70s were basically folk singers - Annie Haslam, Maddy Prior, Jacqui McShee.  They all sang in the soprano/mezzo range, likewise Joni Mitchell.  As popular music came to be dominated by electric guitar and hard, rocking beats, it probably narrowed the 'preferred range' within which singers are expected to operate, zeroing in on the tenor range almost to the exclusion of everything else.  There used to be the occasional baritones like Mark Knopfler and Chris Rea but not too many of those either these days.  Over a period of time, the diversity of voices in popular music has reduced as the audience gets increasingly specific in their expectations.

That's an interesting point. It seems to me that apart from a diversity in the voices that were widely popular in the 60s/70s, there's a common style and sound to the popular vocals that I can't quite place a finger on. A bit of rawness in comparison to now, certainly. The overriding trend of the 21st century in mainstream vocals has been towards a particular brand of polished 'perfection' or over-perfection in vocals, even aside from autotune and the like, a very particular sound that's very precisely mannered, polished and smooth, with the Mariah Carey-esque embellishments, all of which ties in to the quest for polished over-perfection in music and mixing in general. It even extends outside of the mainstream to rock and prog (to me, there are plenty of modern prog singers that exhibit this sound, though certainly to a lesser degree), and even in jazz, Buble & Harry Connick Jr exhibit this kind of sound in comparison to Sinatra, for example.
Of course, it's not all like that- especially the main rival, the indie mumbly vocal, and there's plenty of other stuff, especially as you branch out from the mainstream. But it's certainly the prevalent style, in comparison to the prevalent 60s/70s vocal sound.

Now, in a bid to tie this back into the actual subject of the thread, a friend of mine once commented that she didn't like female vocals, because they 'all sounded the same.' I wonder if this is because female singers are far more common in pop and so on and nearly absent from many other genres, whereas males are common across the board- so the majority of female singers heard, being pop, will fit the polished style, whereas there'll be plenty of men in other, especially harder genres that deviate from it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 04:19
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I should point out that when I referred to high-octave singers I was meaning mezzo-soprano where there is naturally overlap between male and female vocal range (Tori Amos, Sharon den Adel, Simone Simons, Matt Bellamy, Robert Plant etc.) not soprano's like Sally Oldfield, Liv Kristine or Tarja Turunen - Kate Bush and Annie Haslam can hit the notes but they don't live there, male singers only enter the soprano range in falsetto.
Dean HugI love you too much really Huglisten to a few snippets by Daniel Gildenlow, the first tracks might seem metal but he is very diverse. He is a multi-instrumentalist with a 4 octave vocals range WinkHughttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_sTVXKmjQ
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 04:28
I think for sometime, the emphasis has been on keeping out mistakes and this seems to include even minor imperfections that were left on record earlier.  To be sure, the constraints of analog made it difficult to airbrush recordings to the same extent earlier; else singers may have gotten their recordings cleaned up even then.  

The other sweeping trend is in the delivery of the words itself in a very flat and flavourless (but polished and flawless) accent.  This is across the board.  It's the same in my country.  Either artists have forgotten the importance of cultural nuances in endearing their work to the audience and giving it personality or they do it because they are afraid of how the audience would react.  In the 70s, you had such a wide variety of English accents.  Lake almost seemed to imitate American accents.  Gabriel was very English. So was Jon Anderson but he brought a different accent and likewise Ian Anderson.  Ozzy sounded absolutely nothing like Gillan.  These folks were all experimenting and trying to arrive at what each perhaps thought would be the perfect vocal style.  Over a period of time, it seems as if artists have already made up their mind about what would be a perfect style and just reproduce it.  Many of them with assembly line uniformity.   You have an interesting point that maybe with so many female singers in pop, this uniformity breeds a general dislike of female singers.  A parallel I can immediately think of is women's tennis.  They all seem to play from the same coaching manual.  Well, not all, but only discerning fans today would be aware of which ones play differently whereas earlier the difference between Graf, Pierce, Sanchez-Vicario, Hingis was more readily apparent.  

Another point is time tends to cast a shroud over unremarkable artists or unremarkable works of art and spotlights the more unique ones for future generations.  Maybe our time will look very different with the benefit of hindsight, it's hard to tell.  I remember sampling non-Carpenters versions of Won't Last A Day Without You.  Man, they sounded annoyingly uniform and I could totally see why the Carpenters cover has stood the test of time.  

But something has changed about just the way vocals are treated in the studio with a result that is not particularly agreeable to my taste.  Often times, the vocals sound better in the live performance of the same track so I wonder if it's just over compression, cutting out the subtle dynamic variations that make a performance lively and human.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 05:00
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I should point out that when I referred to high-octave singers I was meaning mezzo-soprano where there is naturally overlap between male and female vocal range (Tori Amos, Sharon den Adel, Simone Simons, Matt Bellamy, Robert Plant etc.) not soprano's like Sally Oldfield, Liv Kristine or Tarja Turunen - Kate Bush and Annie Haslam can hit the notes but they don't live there, male singers only enter the soprano range in falsetto.
Dean HugI love you too much really Huglisten to a few snippets by Daniel Gildenlow, the first tracks might seem metal but he is very diverse. He is a multi-instrumentalist with a 4 octave vocals range WinkHughttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_sTVXKmjQ
Generalisations have exceptions. [edit: On reflection Gildenlow's 4-octave range is baritone, only briefly extending into mezzo]

btw, while I haven't "scrobbled" for many years, and then only for a very short time, my LastFM most played chart looks like this:
Wink


Edited by Dean - December 14 2014 at 03:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 05:08
Dean scores...

If her career wasn't so recent and relatively short, Anneke van Giersbergen might deserve mention her as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 05:09
Speaking of Sally Oldfield... she certainly qualifies as a Princess of Prog:


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2014 at 06:09
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I should point out that when I referred to high-octave singers I was meaning mezzo-soprano where there is naturally overlap between male and female vocal range (Tori Amos, Sharon den Adel, Simone Simons, Matt Bellamy, Robert Plant etc.) not soprano's like Sally Oldfield, Liv Kristine or Tarja Turunen - Kate Bush and Annie Haslam can hit the notes but they don't live there, male singers only enter the soprano range in falsetto.
Dean HugI love you too much really Huglisten to a few snippets by Daniel Gildenlow, the first tracks might seem metal but he is very diverse. He is a multi-instrumentalist with a 4 octave vocals range WinkHughttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_sTVXKmjQ
Generalisations have exceptions.

btw, while I haven't "scrobbled" for many years, and then only for a very short time, my LastFM most played chart looks like this:
Wink
My favorite grumpy is my ultimate favorite fabulous awesome one! True this! ClapHeartHug
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