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Topic ClosedDoes Miles Davis belong in Prog?

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 09:57
There's a link on YouTube where Miley Cyrus's backing band play "Cygnus X-1" on stage for a laugh and to confuse the audience. 

Better get her in the archives, then. ;-)

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Kati View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:01
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

There's a link on YouTube where Miley Cyrus's backing band play "Cygnus X-1" on stage for a laugh and to confuse the audience. 

Better get her in the archives, then. ;-)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:04
Great song defiled by the back-up band of a no-talent. Go blog her site with this info.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:11
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Great song defiled by the back-up band of a no-talent. Go blog her site with this info.
Rednight, by referring to her, I think I am the only one here to be referred as her. I do not have a blog and you are not a nice person either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:13
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

There's a link on YouTube where Miley Cyrus's backing band play "Cygnus X-1" on stage for a laugh and to confuse the audience. 

Better get her in the archives, then. ;-)


wasn't that Katy Perry's band?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:27
Originally posted by rocko rocko wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

There's a link on YouTube where Miley Cyrus's backing band play "Cygnus X-1" on stage for a laugh and to confuse the audience. 


wasn't that Katy Perry's band?

Not too many people here on PA would know the difference between Mileys Cygnus and a pet armadillo Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 10:48
N'Sync's band played "Tom Sawyer".  So What? (get it?)
Tell me how that constitutes releasing a prog album.
 
We all seem to be in agreement that Miles was primarily a jazz musician. That is not the point.
And although a large majority of his albums have absolutely nothing to do with fusion, quite a few do - much more than 1 or 2.  And while Davesax is correct about Miles being a disagreeable person, I feel he is being presumptuous about the man, and about jazz in general.
 
Miles may not have wanted to be labeled as a prog musician, but I got the impression, from my personal experience (as an assistant to the producer at some major jazz festivals - a title much more impressive than the actual job) was that he wanted his music to defy any labels.  And when I told him that my friends and I were huge fans of his fusion albums, which opened out eyes to his and other artists' jazz albums, he actually seemed happy to speak to me.  And he certainly wasn't running from his association with fusion.
 
 
 
 
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:10
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Great song defiled by the back-up band of a no-talent. Go blog her site with this info.
Rednight, by referring to her, I think I am the only one here to be referred as her. I do not have a blog and you are not a nice person either.

Hmmmm... I think he meant Miley, Kati, not you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:16
I'm wrong !! Katy Perry. Apologies, all. :-)
Argonaught is right, I was trying to male multitask at the time.

My question to him now is who the hell IS Katy Perry ? 

I am 49. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 11:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tG-K2TXk_w

They ARE actually playing it. ;-)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 13:31
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Progressive rock...? No....jazz and jazz fusion...yes.

But there is no "jazz and jazz fusion" category here at PA...
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 13:34
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

When you think of "progressive rock music" does Robert Plant come to mind? 
When you think of Tori Amos do you think of progressive rock music? 
When you listen to Nightwish do you think, "Man, this is great prog!" ??
I bet not.

Miles Davis belongs in Jazz-Rock/Fusion. 

I just don't feel the "Rock" in Miles music like I do in Nucleus, Mahavishnu, RTF, and even Herbie.
Drew Fisher
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 13:37
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

He is the master of fusion jazz and experimental jazz.....I would never put him in any rock category. Why would he be put in proto-prog? By the PA definition "proto" means earliest and "prog" we all connect with progrock....so by that he is not the "earliest prog rock" artist.

Proto-fusion jazz makes more sense than proto-prog, but even that to me is a stretch of definitions.

But PA has "Jazz-Rock/Fusion" as its category, not "fusion jazz" or "experimental jazz. " I see many groups turned away because they lack the "rock" element in their music. Does Miles "rock"

There is the alternative site, JazzArchives.com for jazz artists. Does Miles music belong in Prog?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 13:45
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

When you think of "progressive rock music" does Miles Davis come to mind? 
When you think of Miles Davis do you think of progressive rock music? 
When you listen to Miles Davis do you think, "Man, this is great prog!" ??
I bet not.

Hell no I do not! Clap

While I would not argue that Miles Davis' bold musical experiments significantly contributed to the mental courage it took to take music into new and different directions--into what we call "progressive rock"--I would argue that he 

Miles Davis belongs within the "proto-prog" compartment for the ripple effects that his albums and concerts and interviews had on musicians in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

Yes, but Proto-Prog more so than Prog Related is one of the worst things this site has done and handled IMO. To be done and done correctly it would have been a Pandora's Box, perhaps recognizing that, those in charge of it have nessarily done an incomplete job with it. Some have been included .. not all and many that were had no business being there. The Doors? Bullsh*t..  No one loves the Airplane more than me, but Proto-PROG. Come on..

As proof of my case, look at Mickey and Raffa's latest polarity contest poll entitled "WINTER MADNESS:  PA's Battle of the Bands": 64 of the most popular and "influential" prog bands, both past and present, which had no place, no call, no advocacy for an artist who has no less than 6 albums in the PA Top 250 Studio albums of all-time, no less than 10 albums in the PA archives with average ratings over 4.0, yet the prog rockers here on PA did not feel him worthy of a place in the polling contest of the most popular and influential artists/bands of all-time.  The masses seem to be saying that Miles Davis is not prog.

hahaha. I don't know about the masses.  What one can take from what I said was Miles Davis transcends mere prog rock and simply didn't 'fit' the overall feel of the contest.  It was done for fun's sake for God's sake. LOL

Therefore, it seems natural that Miles Davis does not deserve to be in the main, general files of PA. His work served to influence artist to become adventurous--perhaps to become progressive or even to become prog, but his music is not what I consider prog. His music is not what I would ever submit to a newbie as a prime example of prog (unless I were shamelessly trying to pad the prog resumé).
 

Miles Davis belongs in Proto-prog.

The issue isn't Miles Davis, it is the school of thought that some have that being included IN the database means the site is saying they are prog artists.  One can do prog albums and not be considered a prog artist. Look at Genesis haha.  History sees Genesis as a pop group, no matter what prog fan wants to think. However they had a prog phase.  Miles Davis did albums which fit a sub-genre this site considers to be prog or progressive rock (related but different). However the site is not saying Davis is a prog artist. He transcended that mere tag dude.

Some good points here, Micky. Regarding your last paragraph: I've watched as PA has gradually expanded its borders by including groups like Queen, Led Zeppelin, Journey, etc., which had some albums with some prog-like songs. I, however, fail to hear this "progginess" in Miles Davis' music--not like I do in other artists mentioned above that have that "rock" feel like Nucleus, Mahavishnu, RTF, and Hancock and Metheny. I think by having 6 Miles albums occupy spots in the All-Time Top 250 studio albums list, PA is saying that Miles is prog--especially since those albums span a 20 year span. 

I think he is a jazz artist. Period. 
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 13:46
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm Mellotron Storm wrote:

Yup, along with Nucleus, Weather Report, Return To Forever etc. As long as there's a Jazz/Rock/Fusion sub-genre of Prog then of course he belongs. If you don't think that sub-genre belongs under the Prog umbrella then no he doesn't along with the rest of these. Proto-Prog to me is way off, just my opinion.

But there isn't a "Jazz/Rock/Fusion" sub-genre here at PA. It is "Jazz-Rock/Fusion"!!!
Drew Fisher
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 13:57
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

It doesn't really matter what category he's in. I think he fits the criteria for Jazz Rock Fusion solely on the basis of a relative handful of his immense discography. His importance as an artist is as massive as anyone America has yet produced; his importance to "prog" is miniscule by comparison. This site has chosen to focus on just a thin sliver of the musical spectrum, for ease of management as much as anything else. Davis's relevance to prog lies in his contributions to Jazz Rock fusion, that is i believe the rationale for putting him there. You could make a decent argument for Proto Prog, but that would rest on the assumption that he wasn't ever a prog artist and he preceded prog. In a Silent Way was 1966, right? So maybe you're right.

But back to my point. If he's on the site anyway, why change his sub? What benefit would that have?

Benefit: 6 prog artists could have the spots now occupied by Kind of Blue (from 1959 for God's sake!), In a Silent Way, Bitches Brew, Milestones (1958), A Tribute to Jack Johnson, and 'Round about Midnight (1957). 
Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 14:38
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

 My question to him now is who the hell IS Katy Perry ? 

She must have been named after the KT66, although I am hearing she is not entirely kinkless Geek
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 17:40
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

When you think of "progressive rock music" does Robert Plant come to mind? 
When you think of Tori Amos do you think of progressive rock music? 
When you listen to Nightwish do you think, "Man, this is great prog!" ??
I bet not.

Miles Davis belongs in Jazz-Rock/Fusion. 

I just don't feel the "Rock" in Miles music like I do in Nucleus, Mahavishnu, RTF, and even Herbie.

Because Miles Davis didn't create the style of music found in Nucleus, Mahavishnu, RTF. and Herbie. He created new ideas for music that influenced  Mahavishnu and RTF to write a fusion style leaning more toward Rock..just as Tony Williams did with Alan Holdsworth on the Tony Williams Lifetime sessions. Miles Davis DID have a Rock feel about his music regarding some of his grooves and the accents placed upon them, but it was more in the shadows when compared to the mid to late 70's Fusion bands. Besides,..they weren't influenced by the Rock side or the fusing of Jazz and Rock together as much as they were with Miles Davis' ideas that felt like a religion. All his ideas from what he heard in his head were like a collection of unorthodox methods contained in a book.

 It was the ideas that influenced Weather Report and others to approach composition as they learned or were exposed to it in the Miles Davis school. That's why some Weather Report albums are atmospheric sounding in various pieces and creating an instrumental storytelling style to the album in it's entirety. On a Miles Davis recording, you would hear scattered improvisation , but once you thought that the album may have been just about that, the music would deceive you by changing a pattern and drifting off into some cosmic avant-garde soundscape. I believe Miles Davis influenced people to write differently rather than placing his influence in Jazz/Fusion. He was the innovator of Jazz Fusion , but also created ideas that musicians applied in their own music, but just in a different way. The listener wouldn't know if the idea had been created by Miles Davis. Music is not always that revealing and especially with an innovator like Miles Davis.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 17:49
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Some of you need to listen to this album:

http://grooveshark.com/#!/album/Dark+Magus/4432975


Magma America Great Make Again
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 21:10
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Great song defiled by the back-up band of a no-talent. Go blog her site with this info.
Rednight, by referring to her, I think I am the only one here to be referred as her. I do not have a blog and you are not a nice person either.
I am so embarrassed right now Unhappy 
Rednight please accept my sincere apologies, I am a nincompoop and completely misunderstood who you were talking about.
I feel very bad and I am very sorry for typing that above.
You are a very nice person. Smile I would hug Hugbut don't think you are much impressed with me right now.
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