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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 12:13
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Points: 12724 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 23:43
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:



Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

... which kind of proves the point that "prog" is of men, by men, and for men

Kate
Bush would probably be the most imperial female figure of prog, if she
had anything to do with prog (alternative eclectic art-pop isn't quite
prog).

...

Annie wins, therefore, and not by default. She is the only one I can
think of who is a fantastic music-maker, not weird, incontestably
"prog", and has done more than enough to earn the title.


Woah...

So unless a thread is insanely long, I read the whole thing before I post... if I post.  I couldn't let this one go even though it was stated a few pages back.  Since then there's been a lot of randomness, so I think this is still relevant anyway.

Let's get this over with - I am female.  And I LOVE prog. (And I'm not even a lesbian!) This is a direct counter-example to prog being for men... since I am not a man.

Here's the thing that seems weird at first - I think the "of men, by men" statement is mostly true.  Almost overwhelmingly so.  It makes me wonder why.  I have thoughts... none are guaranteed to be correct, but I think in general it is more difficult for a female musician to be taken seriously in the music industry than it is for a male one.  Singing seems to be the exception to the rule, but even this is over-sexified to the point at which the singer is more like an object on display on the stage than a source of music.  It often irks me that most people want something to look at with their music.  For me, it's just the sound and I really couldn't care less what the person on the stage looks like.  This "of men, by men" statement could probably be applied to just about any musical genre.  Geez, when was the last time you saw a female name credited as the composer of a movie's soundtrack, or a conductor?  I'm coming up with a big fat 0.  I bet they're out there, but I've never run across one and I am a person who looks for music.

Before this turns into rambling nonsense (I''m really trying not to go off-topic here... bring it back around to "queen of prog"), what I'm trying to say is that there's an overwhelmingly large amount of pressure for a female musician to be sexy because that's what people looking at her want to see.  There's pressure for men, too.  But I see plenty of guys up on stage who are a total mess in various different ways, and it doesn't break the deal.  If a woman came out on stage with ::gasp!:: no makeup... that would probably be a dealbreaker.  All of these women that are being discussed are pretty (or were pretty 40 years ago).  I don't think I've ever seen a singer or otherwise in an even minorly successful band that was even slightly overweight.  And now, the kicker - a woman who is always made-up and image-conscious with how she dresses, moves, etc.... is not taken seriously because she is a "fake."

Kate Bush is one of very, very few women who have managed to walk this razor-thin line between being easy on the eyes and being fake.  Others I can think of are Tori Amos and Sarah MacLachlan.  There are strong similarities between these three artists - all compose on acoustic piano (not always, but a lot), all tend toward acoustic instrumental arrangements, and all three overwhelmingly tend to write songs about specific human beings.  Bush and Amos blow MacLachlan away with the creativity of their arrangements.

Notice none of these three are labeled as "prog" - but musically you could make a very strong argument for Tori Amos because many, many of her songs do not follow the verse-chorus structure, there are progressive arrangements almost constantly in the keyboard parts because she has some excellent chops, and a great deal of her songs run 7 minutes plus.  Nowhere in the definition of prog does it say that "you have to be playing your awesome parts on synthesizers - real pianos don't count!"  Does Tori Amos sound like Yes, King Crimson, Rush, ELP, or Dream Theater?  No.  But they don't sound like each other, either.  She's also not looking to be labeled "prog," maybe because it's bad for business or maybe because that's just not how she defines herself... and that's fine.  And it's fine if we don't label her prog, either.  But If I had a vote, even though I *love* Kate Bush, I would vote for Tori Amos, because I feel her music is on average more in the prog zone.

Wow that was long.  Too many thoughts, crowded brain.  I'll try to keep the rest short.  Maybe a bulleted list?
- I adore Annie Haslam's voice.  But as a songwriter when she tries it doesn't work out.  I wouldn't put her in the same class as Bush or Amos, though I think she grinds Tarja Turunen into the ground.
- Betty Thatcher was the lyricist for Renaissance.  She was a poet.  I just felt like she deserved an honorable mention for the amazing words to "Can You Hear Me," "Touching Once is so Hard to Keep," "Day of the Dreamer," and so many others.  Would not ever suggest her to be the queen of prog, though... but if you put her together with Annie Haslam you start to assemble part of a Kate Bush! Smile



So much win in this postClap. I don't have the time to elaborate on this now, but - as a lifelong prog fan - I don't really like to be made to feel as if I am a freak of nature for liking a genre supposedly made "by men fr men". I hoped such tired arguments had been left behind years ago, before I took my 4-year break frm PA... Unfortunately, it seems it's not the case.


OK, just a thought. I believe that the reason there's so many more men who like prog than women is not because prog was created by men for men, but simply because for some reason, and I don't really know why that could be, women tend to be less interested in it and usually won't get interested by it.
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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 00:43
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Points: 367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 00:51
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

After that recent thesis posted by the stone-age-less 'female' .....glad you're not a lesbian.....but Prog was never 'designed' for a 'male only' crowd. It's there for all and sundry to enjoy......
......but then I've had a few drinks, mowed lawns, and I'm totally knackered........


Yes, that's exactly what I said.  That it's not just for men.  I was countering the statement that it was for men.

The female-image-in-music-industry is not inherently a prog thing at all.  It's all over the industry.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:

 Geez, when was the last time you saw a female name credited as the composer of a movie's soundtrack, or a conductor?  I'm coming up with a big fat 0.  I bet they're out there, but I've never run across one and I am a person who looks for music.
First that springs to mind is of course Nancy Wilson who scored several soundtracks for her (then) husband Cameron Crowe.

While not often being sole-composer, Lisa Gerrard has also scored a number of films.

Viola player Jocelyn Pook has written many soundtracks, including contributing to Eyes Wide Shut for Stanley Kubric, whose daughter Vivian composed the soundtrack to Full Metal Jacket.

We should not forget Björk's film work, especially Dancer In The Dark.

But I think the most successful female soundtrack composer (something over 80 film and tv soundtracks) is probably Rachel Portman who was won many awards for her work, including a Oscar for Emma and has been was awarded an OBE for her contribution to music.


Did a quick look-up of Rachel Portman.  The only one of the films on her list that I had seen was Emma, which I didn't like.  I actually never saw Eyes Wide Shut or Full Metal Jacket, either.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

As for Kate v/s Tori, I would like to reprise a (in)famous PA cliche and say that Tori may perhaps be more PROG but Kate is more PROGRESSIVE...in my opinion Wink.  To me, she's the queen of rock and prog be damned! Wink


Woooah!  :)  That's fair.  I feel that Kate Bush's carreer has been a study in progression (meaning evolution from one album to the next), whereas Tori Amos overall seems to be getting a bit more tame with time.

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

OK, just a thought. I believe that the reason there's so many more men who like prog than women is not because prog was created by men for men, but simply because for some reason, and I don't really know why that could be, women tend to be less interested in it and usually won't get interested by it.


This is possible.  For example, it seems to be very rare that I meet a female rap fan.  I could say more about this, but really don't feel the desire to post a second "thesis" coming over me just now. Wink
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 00:55
I am not fond of Annie Haslam's  voice, but respect those who do. Thus to me she is not comparable to Kate Bush whose vocals I do love. Stern SmileThumbs UpHug
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 00:58
One could say that most women don't really go for Prog because it can be demanding in terms of listening pleasure ; odd time sigs, strange instrumentation, loooong songs, and general weirdness that goes on.
I do know females that like Genesis, even Gabriel era, Yes, Floyd etc. but I've never come across a chick who loves Caravan, VDGG, Magma........
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:04
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

One could say that most women don't really go for Prog because it can be demanding in terms of listening pleasure ; odd time sigs, strange instrumentation, loooong songs, and general weirdness that goes on.
I do know females that like Genesis, even Gabriel era, Yes, Floyd etc. but I've never come across a chick who loves Caravan, VDGG, Magma........
are you saying that I am an alien or weird???? Stern Smile umhpft WinkConfused
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:09
Kati !! You are an exception to the rule. I've said it before, you have incredible knowledge of Prog, and music in general. And AMAZING taste......plus an awesome artist. Too many great things....
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:13
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Kati !! You are an exception to the rule. I've said it before, you have incredible knowledge of Prog, and music in general. And AMAZING taste......plus an awesome artist. Too many great things....
Awww Tom you are too cute flattering, I could eat you up right now! Thank you very much, huge hug Hugand another big tight hug Hug 
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:16
^ Plus, I saw a pic of you proudly showing off your Beardfish LP - when I stared at the pic, I really shook my head in amazement. You blow me away !! Cool, too cool
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:18
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ Plus, I saw a pic of you proudly showing off your Beardfish LP - when I stared at the pic, I really shook my head in amazement. You blow me away !! Cool, too cool
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:22
^ Pure joy
Nice one, cutie-pie
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Points: 367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:36
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

One could say that most women don't really go for Prog because it can be demanding in terms of listening pleasure ; odd time sigs, strange instrumentation, loooong songs, and general weirdness that goes on.
I do know females that like Genesis, even Gabriel era, Yes, Floyd etc. but I've never come across a chick who loves Caravan, VDGG, Magma........


I think this is the reason most people in general don't go for prog, really.  Lazy listeners who want to use music only as a mood regulator and not as an art form.

Genesis was way better when Peter Gabriel was singing.  The drum machine killed them dead.

There's an obscurity problem with that list.  I really couldn't tell you if I liked Magma at all, for example, because I've never listened to them, nor have I run across them in a non-forum environment.  (Heard the others only a little).  Can't really help liking the bands that I've heard a lot vs. the ones I've heard rarely or never.  I can tell you that I love Opeth (Deliverance and prior, yes please), which doesn't exactly fall on the easy-to-listen-to side of the scale.

So lots of people put up a lot of suggestions for "queen of prog" but so far it seems that most people are saying either Kate Bush or Annie Haslam, though that might be since those names were in the first post.  And there are certainly some people whom I've never heard.  I checked out one of them - Natasha Khan - a bit so far - first impression is "nice" but nothing struck me.  Did anyone else listen to some of the suggestions on here so far?
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 01:48
Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:

Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

One could say that most women don't really go for Prog because it can be demanding in terms of listening pleasure ; odd time sigs, strange instrumentation, loooong songs, and general weirdness that goes on.
I do know females that like Genesis, even Gabriel era, Yes, Floyd etc. but I've never come across a chick who loves Caravan, VDGG, Magma........


I think this is the reason most people in general don't go for prog, really.  Lazy listeners who want to use music only as a mood regulator and not as an art form.

Genesis was way better when Peter Gabriel was singing.  The drum machine killed them dead.

There's an obscurity problem with that list.  I really couldn't tell you if I liked Magma at all, for example, because I've never listened to them, nor have I run across them in a non-forum environment.  (Heard the others only a little).  Can't really help liking the bands that I've heard a lot vs. the ones I've heard rarely or never.  I can tell you that I love Opeth (Deliverance and prior, yes please), which doesn't exactly fall on the easy-to-listen-to side of the scale.

So lots of people put up a lot of suggestions for "queen of prog" but so far it seems that most people are saying either Kate Bush or Annie Haslam, though that might be since those names were in the first post.  And there are certainly some people whom I've never heard.  I checked out one of them - Natasha Khan - a bit so far - first impression is "nice" but nothing struck me.  Did anyone else listen to some of the suggestions on here so far?


drum machine? I doubt that Phil Collins who is foremost a brilliant drummer would be content with anything not real sounding like a drum machine. Confused  
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Points: 557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 02:08
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

One could say that most women don't really go for Prog because it can be demanding in terms of listening pleasure ; odd time sigs, strange instrumentation, loooong songs, and general weirdness that goes on.

Women can't deal with demanding listening and men can? Confused  Something I'm missing here?
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Points: 367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 02:12
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

drum machine? I doubt that Phil Collins who is foremost a brilliant drummer would be content with anything not real sounding like a drum machine. Confused  


And yet, he was. Smile  "Duke was the real transition from their 1970s progressive rock sound to the 1980s pop era.[28] The use of a drum machine became a consistent element on subsequent Genesis albums, as well as on Collins's solo releases. The first Genesis song to feature a drum machine was the Duke track "Duchess". The more commercial Duke was well received by the mainstream media, and was the band's first UK number one album, while the tracks "Misunderstanding" and "Turn It On Again" became live performance favourites. The drum machine Roland CR-78 that Collins used to make the sound effects on Duke, his first solo album Face Value, and the Brand X song "Wall to Wall" was also used on Phillips' album 1984 in 1981."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_%28band%29

Phil Collins is a good drummer, but the repetitive nature of the drum machine altered Genesis' music, and not in a way that I like.  Don't get me wrong, I still find some of the stuff catchy, I just don't put it in the same category.

And now the topic is way off the rails.
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 02:35
Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

drum machine? I doubt that Phil Collins who is foremost a brilliant drummer would be content with anything not real sounding like a drum machine. Confused  


And yet, he was. Smile  "Duke was the real transition from their 1970s progressive rock sound to the 1980s pop era.[28] The use of a drum machine became a consistent element on subsequent Genesis albums, as well as on Collins's solo releases. The first Genesis song to feature a drum machine was the Duke track "Duchess". The more commercial Duke was well received by the mainstream media, and was the band's first UK number one album, while the tracks "Misunderstanding" and "Turn It On Again" became live performance favourites. The drum machine Roland CR-78 that Collins used to make the sound effects on Duke, his first solo album Face Value, and the Brand X song "Wall to Wall" was also used on Phillips' album 1984 in 1981."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_%28band%29

Phil Collins is a good drummer, but the repetitive nature of the drum machine altered Genesis' music, and not in a way that I like.  Don't get me wrong, I still find some of the stuff catchy, I just don't put it in the same category.

And now the topic is way off the rails.
you are naughty and this is for you, Star_Song_Age_LessWink hugs Hug
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 02:44
only thing missing here is the cowbell but wow yay yes yay! whooohaaaa! ShockedClapHug

Edited by Kati - December 11 2014 at 02:44
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 02:48
crumpets and tea yay!Big smile yumHug
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 06:07
Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Star_Song_Age_Less Star_Song_Age_Less wrote:

 Geez, when was the last time you saw a female name credited as the composer of a movie's soundtrack, or a conductor?  I'm coming up with a big fat 0.  I bet they're out there, but I've never run across one and I am a person who looks for music.
First that springs to mind is of course Nancy Wilson who scored several soundtracks for her (then) husband Cameron Crowe.

While not often being sole-composer, Lisa Gerrard has also scored a number of films.

Viola player Jocelyn Pook has written many soundtracks, including contributing to Eyes Wide Shut for Stanley Kubric, whose daughter Vivian composed the soundtrack to Full Metal Jacket.

We should not forget Björk's film work, especially Dancer In The Dark.

But I think the most successful female soundtrack composer (something over 80 film and tv soundtracks) is probably Rachel Portman who was won many awards for her work, including a Oscar for Emma and has been was awarded an OBE for her contribution to music.


Did a quick look-up of Rachel Portman.  The only one of the films on her list that I had seen was Emma, which I didn't like.  I actually never saw Eyes Wide Shut or Full Metal Jacket, either.
I'm big fan of Jane Austen's writing but have yet to see a film that captures her sharp social observation and subtle wit. However I think Portman's soundtrack for Emma was rather good. Given the huge list of films she has scored I'm a little surprised that Emma is the only one you've seen because she's written music for some pretty famous (and popular) films [Sirens, Benny & Joon, Road to Wellville, Palookaville, Chocolat, Marvin's Room, Lake House, The Cider House Rules, etc., etc.] I'm also a big fan of Soundtracks, they are a unique form of music that is not intended to be intrusive or overpowering but enhancing and complimentary and that's a special skill, which is why I don't care for John William's soundtracks but adore soundtacks by people like Vangelis, Morricone and Glass. 

Not exactly "on-topic" and probably one for the "Obscure Prog Facts" thread, but Rachel Portman has an oblique prog connection ... she is a Charterhouse alumni (the school became co-ed in the 1970s, long after Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel, McPhail and Philips had left).

One other female soundtrack composer I've just remembered: Wendy Carlos.

Anyway, as you rightly said, music is a male-dominated art-form across the board and not just Progressive Rock, but that does not imply that it is written for men alone. Discussion on how and why certain forms of music are favoured more by one gender than the other will tend to be dominated by crass generalisations and gender-stereotyping and that's not going to resolve anything. It has to be noted that Progressive Rock is a minority genre with males and females alike. To be frank, I'm struggling to imagine what Prog (or practically any minority music genre) would sound like if written by men for women, by women for women or by women for men. Kate Bush can sing of this woman's world and men can (and do) relate to that at some level, if not the same level. The same is true of Alice Cooper's Only Women Bleed, whether sung by Vince himself or Tori Amos, (though that said, it probably carries more poignancy when sung by Tina Turner). 

The singing voice is the only musical sound where we can clearly identify the gender of the performer (unless it's Angela Gossow...Wink) - when a female picks up a guitar and plays there is nothing in the playing that singles it out as being feminine or gender-specific [thinking of Amanda Lehmann (Steve Hacket band) and Lori Linstruth (Guilt Machine, Stream of Passion)], the same is true of bass players, keyboardists and drummers. 

So when a female singer sings we can tell the gender without having to look, and we can appreciate it regardless of the image or the singers appearance. We (as listeners) often tend to prefer singers who sing in a higher-register regardless of our own gender, for example Robert Plant, Matt Bellamy, Thijs van Leer, Jon Anderson, Jeff Buckley, etc., are popular high-octave male singers, but we don't mistake them for females. However, this preference does favour female singers and I think that many of the female-fronted rock bands would be less popular if they had male singers. While non-singing male musicians dominate (in a typical orchestra that's something like 3:1 and much, much worse in popular music), the number of female vocalists, especially in Pop Music, is much higher and I do not believe this is solely attributed to looks and image. That's not to say that an attractive singer (female or male) does not have an advantage, of course they do - that is human nature and smart marketing.



Edited by Dean - December 11 2014 at 07:22
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