Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Does Miles Davis belong in Prog?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedDoes Miles Davis belong in Prog?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 19>
Author
Message
Argonaught View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 04 2012
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 1413
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 13:37
Originally posted by freyacat freyacat wrote:

 When you really think about it, what is it that makes Mahavishnu Orchestra jazz and Larks' Tongues in Aspic rock? 

LTIA in my collection is listed as jazz, because to a listener without previous knowledge (prejudice?) of KC it would likely feel more like jazz than commonly defined rock. 
Back to Top
CPicard View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Lŕ, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 14:15
Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had never done AOR albums. Shame on him.

Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had done some funky music. Progsters don't funk, they're too white for that.

Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had never played on a 12-strings guitar.

Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had never covered the Beatles. No Beatles, no prog, that's simple.


Yeah, it's pure trolling, but I don't even regret it.


Edited by CPicard - December 10 2014 at 14:15
Back to Top
zravkapt View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 12 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6446
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 16:04
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Some of you need to listen to this album:

http://grooveshark.com/#!/album/Dark+Magus/4432975


Magma America Great Make Again
Back to Top
Angelo View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: May 07 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13244
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 16:19
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

When you think of "progressive rock music" does Miles Davis come to mind? 
When you think of Miles Davis do you think of progressive rock music? 
When you listen to Miles Davis do you think, "Man, this is great prog!" ??
I bet not.

While I would not argue that Miles Davis' bold musical experiments significantly contributed to the mental courage it took to take music into new and different directions--into what we call "progressive rock"--I would argue that he 

Miles Davis belongs within the "proto-prog" compartment for the ripple effects that his albums and concerts and interviews had on musicians in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. 

As proof of my case, look at Mickey and Raffa's latest polarity contest poll entitled "WINTER MADNESS:  PA's Battle of the Bands": 64 of the most popular and "influential" prog bands, both past and present, which had no place, no call, no advocacy for an artist who has no less than 6 albums in the PA Top 250 Studio albums of all-time, no less than 10 albums in the PA archives with average ratings over 4.0, yet the prog rockers here on PA did not feel him worthy of a place in the polling contest of the most popular and influential artists/bands of all-time. The masses seem to be saying that Miles Davis is not prog. Therefore, it seems natural that Miles Davis does not deserve to be in the main, general files of PA. His work served to influence artist to become adventurous--perhaps to become progressive or even to become prog, but his music is not what I consider prog. His music is not what I would ever submit to a newbie as a prime example of prog (unless I were shamelessly trying to pad the prog resumé). 

Miles Davis belongs in Proto-prog. 

The argument is moot... one poll, in which only a subset of PA members participates as proof of a case? I don't think so. Miles is here, Miles can stay where he is, and the albums to prove him worthy are there as well.
No offence meant, but it can be as simple as that.


Edited by Angelo - December 10 2014 at 16:20
ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected]
Back to Top
Progosopher View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6467
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 18:21
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had never done AOR albums. Shame on him.

Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had done some funky music. Progsters don't funk, they're too white for that.

Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had never played on a 12-strings guitar.

Miles Davis doesn't belong to PA - he had never covered the Beatles. No Beatles, no prog, that's simple.


Yeah, it's pure trolling, but I don't even regret it.
LOL
But did he ever make use of a mellotron?  That alone would qualify him for PA.  If he never did, then no, he does not qualify.  Wink
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
Back to Top
Progosopher View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
Status: Offline
Points: 6467
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 18:29
Originally posted by terramystic terramystic wrote:


 But Kind of Blue in top prog rock albums? Are you kidding?
 
Its placing is one of the weirder aspects of this site, (and I am surprised by how much further up it is than Bitches Brew) but for some reason it is popular amongst rockers and a good gateway into Jazz.  I highly recommend it, but perhaps only after trying out the fusion albums first.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
Back to Top
Evolver View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 21:10
Well... I once worked for the largest jazz festival producer in the world, and as such I saw Miles Davis many times, even met him a few times, and all of that is irrelevant to this discussion.
 
Miles was an innovator of electric fusion.  His early fusion albums were somewhat nebulous.  But the airy nature and open sound provides the backbone of the very early seventies fusion sound.  It was imitated by many of his protégés, as well as a number of other respected artists.  Even rock bands imitated his style.  Have you ever heard Soft Machine's Fourth through Seventh albums? 
 
His later years have him blending funk into that sound.  Progressive rock?  No.  Progressive fusion? Absolutely.  And we have chosen to include progressive fusion on the site.  And fusion is a form of rock, as well as jazz.  So yes.  He absolutely belongs.  And I will oppose anyone who tries to have him removed.
 
I wonder if some of those who don't want him here question other tenuous sub-genres.  Electronic? I love it.  I'm glad it's here.  But is most of it rock?  Hell no.  And Kraftwerk? I haven't heard an album of theirs that I consider prog.   Jam bands?  Very few are prog.  But we have quite a few here.  What's so progressive about extended jamming?  Hmmmmm... sounds very much like some fusion. 
 
My point is that we all have different views of what is prog and what isn't.  And apparently enough of us think each of the genres we include here is legitimate to warrant their inclusion.   So my advice: don't get so damned worked up over it.
 
Now I'm going to keep rereading Kati's "bounce bounce bounce" post... if my poor heart can take it.
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
Back to Top
Mellotron Storm View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13523
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:02
Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Well... I once worked for the largest jazz festival producer in the world, and as such I saw Miles Davis many times, even met him a few times, and all of that is irrelevant to this discussion.
 
Miles was an innovator of electric fusion.  His early fusion albums were somewhat nebulous.  But the airy nature and open sound provides the backbone of the very early seventies fusion sound.  It was imitated by many of his protégés, as well as a number of other respected artists.  Even rock bands imitated his style.  Have you ever heard Soft Machine's Fourth through Seventh albums? 
 
His later years have him blending funk into that sound.  Progressive rock?  No.  Progressive fusion? Absolutely.  And we have chosen to include progressive fusion on the site.  And fusion is a form of rock, as well as jazz.  So yes.  He absolutely belongs.  And I will oppose anyone who tries to have him removed.
 
I wonder if some of those who don't want him here question other tenuous sub-genres.  Electronic? I love it.  I'm glad it's here.  But is most of it rock?  Hell no.  And Kraftwerk? I haven't heard an album of theirs that I consider prog.   Jam bands?  Very few are prog.  But we have quite a few here.  What's so progressive about extended jamming?  Hmmmmm... sounds very much like some fusion. 
 
My point is that we all have different views of what is prog and what isn't.  And apparently enough of us think each of the genres we include here is legitimate to warrant their inclusion.   So my advice: don't get so damned worked up over it.
 
Now I'm going to keep rereading Kati's "bounce bounce bounce" post... if my poor heart can take it.

Well said. I think people get caught up on the "Rock" of Progressive Rock. Personally I never use the term Progressive Rock probably because I include under the umbrella of Prog many bands who wouldn't be classified as Rock. Tangerine Dream comes to mind, heck Art Zoyd isn't a Rock band. Miles Fusion period is more Rock than the two I just mentioned. Anyway as I said before i'm so glad he's here under Jazz/Fusion, probably the sub-genre that has brought me the most satisfaction over the past five years.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
Back to Top
Kati View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:03
Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Well... I once worked for the largest jazz festival producer in the world, and as such I saw Miles Davis many times, even met him a few times, and all of that is irrelevant to this discussion.
 
Miles was an innovator of electric fusion.  His early fusion albums were somewhat nebulous.  But the airy nature and open sound provides the backbone of the very early seventies fusion sound.  It was imitated by many of his protégés, as well as a number of other respected artists.  Even rock bands imitated his style.  Have you ever heard Soft Machine's Fourth through Seventh albums? 
 
His later years have him blending funk into that sound.  Progressive rock?  No.  Progressive fusion? Absolutely.  And we have chosen to include progressive fusion on the site.  And fusion is a form of rock, as well as jazz.  So yes.  He absolutely belongs.  And I will oppose anyone who tries to have him removed.
 
I wonder if some of those who don't want him here question other tenuous sub-genres.  Electronic? I love it.  I'm glad it's here.  But is most of it rock?  Hell no.  And Kraftwerk? I haven't heard an album of theirs that I consider prog.   Jam bands?  Very few are prog.  But we have quite a few here.  What's so progressive about extended jamming?  Hmmmmm... sounds very much like some fusion. 
 
My point is that we all have different views of what is prog and what isn't.  And apparently enough of us think each of the genres we include here is legitimate to warrant their inclusion.   So my advice: don't get so damned worked up over it.
 
Now I'm going to keep rereading Kati's "bounce bounce bounce" post... if my poor heart can take it.
 
hahahahaha!!!! hahaha... LOL hug Hug and more hugs Hughahaha.. I am laughing here Evolver, thank you xxx
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:16
Bitches Brew belongs here. in less degree that  "Their Satanic Majesties request" belongs here

Whoever says that this is not closer to Prog than all Miles Davis discography, is wrong (IMO of course)





But nobody sane will add RS for that sole album.....In the same way Miles shouldn't be here
            
Back to Top
Mellotron Storm View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13523
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:18
If I can add one more thing that may have already been said, Miles wouldn't even be on here if it wasn't for his Jazz/Fusion period. I mention that because there are many Jazz greats who never had a Jazz/Fusion period and those wouldn't even have been considered for this site because of that. It's this site's policy though that the whole discography of an artist be included here weather the albums are Prog or not. So yeah it's a strange thing to see Kind Of Blue on a Prog album chart in my opinion, but Bitches Brew for sure. Miles in this Jazz/Fusion period at one point had two or three guitarists on stage, a drummer, a bass player just like most Rock bands. Like return To Forever always had a guitarist, Nucleus etc. 
Anyway i'm done now with this, as Angelo says Miles isn't going anywhere else but it's an interesting discussion, but I think the Collabs made the right choice back then.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:22
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

But did he ever make use of a mellotron?  That alone would qualify him for PA.  If he never did, then no, he does not qualify.  Wink

Well....Bee Gees and Stevie Wonder used Mellotron........But they don't belong here.

Does anybody also believe that having A kind of Blue in the top 100 Prog albums is misleading?

There was no Prog, or Proto or nothing prog related in 1959
            
Back to Top
Kati View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

But did he ever make use of a mellotron?  That alone would qualify him for PA.  If he never did, then no, he does not qualify.  Wink

Well....Bee Gees and Stevie Wonder used Mellotron........But they don't belong here.

Does anybody also believe that having A kind of Blue in the top 100 Prog albums is misleading?

There was no Prog, or Proto or nothing prog related in 1959
I second what Ivan said too! Approve yes jaja yep si sim da ahum oui Thumbs UpHug
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:31
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

But did he ever make use of a mellotron?  That alone would qualify him for PA.  If he never did, then no, he does not qualify.  Wink

Well....Bee Gees and Stevie Wonder used Mellotron........But they don't belong here.

Does anybody also believe that having A kind of Blue in the top 100 Prog albums is misleading?

There was no Prog, or Proto or nothing prog related in 1959
I second what Ivan said too! Approve yes jaja yep si sim da ahum oui Thumbs UpHug

I love Kati, it's like having a personal cheerleader.

I wish I had that luck in high school....But I remember I  studied in an only male school, so better I didn't. Confused

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 10 2014 at 22:32
            
Back to Top
Kati View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2014 at 22:40
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

But did he ever make use of a mellotron?  That alone would qualify him for PA.  If he never did, then no, he does not qualify.  Wink

Well....Bee Gees and Stevie Wonder used Mellotron........But they don't belong here.

Does anybody also believe that having A kind of Blue in the top 100 Prog albums is misleading?

There was no Prog, or Proto or nothing prog related in 1959
I second what Ivan said too! Approve yes jaja yep si sim da ahum oui Thumbs UpHug

I love Kati, it's like having a personal cheerleader.

I wish I had that luck in high school....But I remember I  studied in an only male school, so better I didn't. Confused

Iván
Ha! No wonder you became so clever! Big smile hahaha yes I happily agree with things you say, because you do say great and insightful things, Ivan! Approve big hug Hug
Back to Top
Kati View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 03:33
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

But did he ever make use of a mellotron?  That alone would qualify him for PA.  If he never did, then no, he does not qualify.  Wink

Well....Bee Gees and Stevie Wonder used Mellotron........But they don't belong here.

Does anybody also believe that having A kind of Blue in the top 100 Prog albums is misleading?

There was no Prog, or Proto or nothing prog related in 1959
I second what Ivan said too! Approve yes jaja yep si sim da ahum oui Thumbs UpHug

I love Kati, it's like having a personal cheerleader.

I wish I had that luck in high school....But I remember I  studied in an only male school, so better I didn't. Confused

Iván
Ivan, this is so good even better than Zhamfir with the good the bad and the ugly. This I must dedicate to you, it's so beautiful xxxx HugHeart
Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 06:58
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Does anybody also believe that having A kind of Blue in the top 100 Prog albums is misleading?
There was no Prog, or Proto or nothing prog related in 1959
 
Yes, I agree. I have no problem with Davis being on PA but A Kind of Blue clearly does not belong in a list of Top prog albums.
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 07:03
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Does anybody also believe that having A kind of Blue in the top 100 Prog albums is misleading?
There was no Prog, or Proto or nothing prog related in 1959
 
Yes, I agree. I have no problem with Davis being on PA but A Kind of Blue clearly does not belong in a list of Top prog albums.

I feel the same, but there is sadly nothing that can be done about it from a software p.o.v.Ouch
The site is not able to weed out non-prog albums from the real McCoy.


“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2839
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 07:06
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

As a jazz musician, I have to tell you that Miles Davis is as prog as the Spice Girls. 

A lot of the experimental jazz of the late 50's - Davis, Coltrane et al, and even of the 40's - Charlie Parker and fellow beboppers - was basically an influence for "progressive" forms of music. But that doesn't make it prog. 

It makes it jazz. It's already been labelled. And Miles went through several different musical styles, as did most jazz musicians. I see a lot of music mislabelled on Prog Archives, and this is definitely one of these occasions. 

Prog ? No. Definitely not. 



But you would agree that Miles was at the forefront of jazz-rock/fusion, and because that genre is represented here then it is appropriate for Miles to be here.  Now, if you think JR/F itself shouldn't be here, you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it's a separate matter.
Miles Davis both with Bitches Brew or Sketches of Spain if this does not belong here I really don't know what does, I am not a sheep btw, as I do not like a all prog moozik although my taste tends to favorite this genre. Big smilehugs,  Hug

Hi Kati and Padraig, sorry, Miles is not prog. Jazz fusion isn't, either. ;-)


Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 11 2014 at 07:10
^I actually agree. I don't consider large parts of the Krautrock, folk, Indo raga, avant, electronic, zeuhl, post rock and metal subs as prog either, although I think they all deserve to be here....just like Miles does for being instrumental in pushing forth the fusion brand.




Edited by Guldbamsen - December 11 2014 at 07:16
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 19>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.207 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.