Round 1 Rome Bracket: Dream Theater v. Caravan

Caravan might not be as obscure as you think. I found the remaster of "For Girls Who Grow Plump in the Night" at my favorite little music shop here in Ann Arbor. The guys working there took a look at my purchase and complimented my good taste.

Roland113 wrote: micky wrote: One they suck   Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band.  No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists. There is a lot to this.  I think one of the biggest tragadies was the loss of Kevin Moore from the band.  In my mind, 'Images and Words' and 'Awake' are both fantastic albums and truly believe it was Kevin Moore and to a lesser extent, John Myung that kept them grounded.    When Jordan Rudess entered the band, it became exactly what you describe above, 'multiple great talents who fail to be a band'.  It seems like for years, Petrucci, Rudess and Portnoy would go into any situation with the theory of 'how many notes can I play, can I play more than the other two guys'.  Both Moore and Myung had the sense to know when to play a lot of notes and when to hold back and I think that the songwriting was more balanced at that point.  When Moore left, Sherinian never really had a chance.  Rudess was the second coming of John Petrucci.  With those three writing, Myung was had less and less to say.  Most of this is opinion and supposition of course, but (and I don't have the time to fact check this over lunch) if memory serves me, st's been quite a few albums since Myung got a writing credit whereas he had some on the Moore albums.  In my mind, when Kevin Moore left, the band kind of lost their soul.   There have been a few good songs here and there since then, I like Octovarium and Black Clouds, but nothing that they've done has matched the majesty of Images and Words and Awake in my mind.

Personally, I think that they mesh find together as a band.  I can understand the feeling that their best albums were with Kevin Moore, as I don't disagree with this feeling, but what they were doing then was also a fresh and new sound.  Personally, I like LaBrie's voice.  I think that it fits better on the slower songs than it does the faster songs, but there don't seem to be too many who agree with me on this feeling.  What I did find, at least on the later albums, were that I tended to really like the songs where Petrucci got the main writing credit, but didn't like the songs where Portnoy got the main writing credit.  I think that with Portnoy's songs he was going for a faster, heavier sound that didn't work that well with LaBrie's voice.  And on the one particular song it didn't help that Portnoy was growling, but I guess you have to give them credit for trying to do something different from their patented sound.

micky wrote: One they suck   Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band.  No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists.

There is a lot to this.  I think one of the biggest tragadies was the loss of Kevin Moore from the band.  In my mind, 'Images and Words' and 'Awake' are both fantastic albums and truly believe it was Kevin Moore and to a lesser extent, John Myung that kept them grounded. 

micky wrote: rogerthat wrote: Ah, good to see this thread came alive. As for the missing fanboys, well, back when they were still there, Truth made a DT v/s Magma poll and called us trolls when Magma won the poll. One thing that hasn't changed is the difficulty they have in digesting the fact that some people don't worship the ground that DT treads, even when the other band is a very fine one like Caravan. I like early DT and patches of the rest of their albums (post Awake) but hey, is any reason other than Another Day required to dislike them? indeed. Nice to see a bit of fire. Well done Scott! Raff told me about this thread conflagration. This is worth dragging myself out of bed for Old days .. new days.  One thing hasn't changed about PA's.. or prog fan.  Prog Metal is has and likely always will be extremely divisive. DT is the obvious target of that for many people. For several reasons. One they suck   Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band.  No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists. Two. They are without doubt the most important and influential.  So obviously they have a big ol' KICK ME SIGN right on their backs for those who don't like prog metal. Three.  O yes. The fans themselves. Yes their fans were a bit much and I do think some of the over the top 'hate' was blowback to them.  DT albums being compared to classics from Yes or even Genesis. Come on. Anyhow. As I noted in my Symphony X review. One really could do a good essay on the relationship of prog fan with prog metal. Prog fan will take most anything showing the slightest leanings of progressiveness and claim it as their own, but for some reason for many Prog Metal has the cooties.  There is a real answer in there that begs to be exposed.

rogerthat wrote: Ah, good to see this thread came alive. As for the missing fanboys, well, back when they were still there, Truth made a DT v/s Magma poll and called us trolls when Magma won the poll. One thing that hasn't changed is the difficulty they have in digesting the fact that some people don't worship the ground that DT treads, even when the other band is a very fine one like Caravan. I like early DT and patches of the rest of their albums (post Awake) but hey, is any reason other than Another Day required to dislike them?

indeed. Nice to see a bit of fire. Well done Scott! Raff told me about this thread conflagration. This is worth dragging myself out of bed for

Old days .. new days.  One thing hasn't changed about PA's.. or prog fan.  Prog Metal is has and likely always will be extremely divisive. DT is the obvious target of that for many people. For several reasons.

One they suck   Or in more detailed terms is they provide the best example of flash without substance and having multiple great talents who fail to be a real band.  No one doubts the talent, or the desire to be 'prog'. However many doubt the final result was listenable. Why does Opeth not get the same level of hate. That is a band. DT was a mere collection of very talented instrumentalists.

Two. They are without doubt the most important and influential.  So obviously they have a big ol' KICK ME SIGN right on their backs for those who don't like prog metal.

Three.  O yes. The fans themselves. Yes their fans were a bit much and I do think some of the over the top 'hate' was blowback to them.  DT albums being compared to classics from Yes or even Genesis. Come on.

Anyhow. As I noted in my Symphony X review. One really could do a good essay on the relationship of prog fan with prog metal. Prog fan will take most anything showing the slightest leanings of progressiveness and claim it as their own, but for some reason for many Prog Metal has the cooties.  There is a real answer in there that begs to be exposed.

The statistics you provide just prove to show how depressingly deep the metal infestation is in prog.  Although, maybe, just maybe, the fact that their representative in this poll is being pummeled gives some hope for a brighter tomorrow.

to speak to what rushfan4 has been saying:
As an American who has just turned 30 I absolutely love Caravan and recognize that prog was basically born in England and at least 90% of the legends of the genre are from merry old England.  Also, I have absolutely no use for Dream Theater or any metal in my prog and view my country's contributions to prog, beyond Frank Zappa, Yezda Urfa, and Arabesque, as suspect at best.  You neither have to be old nor English to feel that metal should be a disqualifying term instead of a subgenre.  Also, it seems really odd to be using public popular opinion as an argument within a forum devoted to a genre that public popular opinion has largely cast into the shadows.  Given what charts here in the US, though I hardly think it's limited to us, if a prog band were to pop up it would make me more suspicious of their credentials than anything else.  I can't imagine a prog fan looking at pop music charts in the first place, though.


Edited by manofmystery - December 08 2014 at 20:44

rushfan4 wrote: I am quite shocked that this is such a blowout.  I am led to wonder how many of the votes are as much a vote against DT as they are for Caravan.  Caravan had so little impact in the USA.  I'm pretty certain I have never heard them mentioned anywhere outside of PA.  Their box set Canterbury Tales was my gateway to this band.  I had read about them back in the day, but their music was not available in local stores until this box set came about.

Rome? Lima? Would you believe Poughkeepsie?

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote: Caravan are a significant if lesser known band in the development of progressive rock in the 70's. My personal view is that there are few DT fanboys here than previously. That and DT being crap.

There are fewer DT fanboys here and my view is that your dislike for them is your loss, but to each their own and all that jazz.