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Isa View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 19:00
I've been wondering lately if prog musicians would have been much better off in their careers if they had constantly shifted around their member lineups, forming new bands and bouncing new ideas off each other.

That's exactly what Jazz artists did and the sheer output of great music, even just from the 50s and 60s, is enormous. That's why I have a lot of respect for Bill Bruford - he seemed to be one of the few who really caught onto this concept early on, leaving Yes right after CttE and what not.

Basically, my suspicion is that the flame goes out because the opportunity for inspired musical ideas grows stale after working with the same musicians for a long time.


Edited by Isa - November 10 2014 at 19:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 19:46
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Another issue for some, could be that some of the newer bands are more crossover than say full prog as in the 70-90s.....They hit a wider sweet spot


as well as being ..ahem.. simply being more progressive and bringing in wider styles and influences rather than the same old sh*t man.  Crossover has become a catch phrase of sorts for progressive rock which has made the break with the dried up, played out, stylistic norms of 70's prog rock. God bless them....

I'm with you micky, notice I said "Another issue for some..". Call them what you want, some of these new bands are bringing fresh sounds. With a core base that still goes back to the old $hit man LOLLOL....What these bands seem to be focusing on is more abstract, mood based, emotions, human stuff versus space/fantasy/dungeons and dragons stuff of the 70's.

Whatever...I like new and old for sure.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 19:54
The flame is whithering, but it's not out just yet as I see it.
 
For me the Dinosaurs are basically done for, some of the skeletons still move around, But these players are really aging now, they are up for retirement. Bless those that still have the energie, the passion, the will and music in them that makes them desire to carry on. Providing a chance for new fans to see them live.
 
The second generation of prog bands are slowely moving in the same direction, but for me those bands are still relevant, and some of those bands are now beginning their cycle of reforming and starting a second life (Echolyn, Discipline) Breaking up and starting new 'supergroups'. But honestly they cater mostly to their 'old' fans, which I am, so for me, the next coupleof years there will be some nice stuff coming, if only on the live circuit. (this is a nice year, with a new IQ, Pendragon, Fish and an upcoming Arena album)
 
For the newest generation I am a bit worried, as they have to built a fanbase in this current situation, with internet taking over, venue's for liveperforming are lessening, and a radio that gets horizontally programmed as to exclude anything besides major compagny's music being played. For professional bands to survive they really need more support, but they have to compete with amateur bands that release cheaply underproduced tripe made on their nintendo game console (and released as independant albums), butclutter the internet, making it difficult for the fans to find the bands worth supporting (that's where sites like this come in, although here also lots of tripe bands are being promoted by well-intending people who just don't recognise the difference between bad instrument control, or bad writing and inventive playing).
 
So yes, it's a perilous time, for good bands, bands need to be proffesional, but that requires income, an income they can barely make selling albums, is difficult to make touring and impossible to make without both.. So I hope the new bands can find a niche in the market that allow them to pursue their carreer profesionally, else I don't expect them to last very long, (and the masterpiece is mostly the third or fourth album, so bands need to stick together)
 
anyway, more text than I intended.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 20:04
The quick answer is yes, but there's more to it than that.   I mean, who hasn't withered?   Metal, pop, jazz-- the only ones to come out on top seem to be the Country artists.   We are entering a phase in Progrock (yes Progrock, not "progressive music") that is much like what modern jazz experienced in the 1970s; still legit, still kicking, still beloved by a minority, but grown-up and without the hunger pangs so common to a young form.   It's up to us at this point to maintain a market (or at least a scene), because no one else cares.   Time marches on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 20:15

                           
          


Edited by presdoug - November 11 2014 at 00:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 21:32
For me the flame is still burning brightly, just not with any of the dinosaur bands with the exception of KC. If your tastes run to the Avant, Zeuhl, and Psyche prog styles then there are are plenty of good interesting bands producing excellent music. There seems to be more being released than ever before and if you have the patience to explore you will be rewarded. I'm as loyal to my modern favorites as I ever was to the classics.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 23:02
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I have never felt so positive about the future of great progressive rock music. 2014 has energised me more than most previous years, and this in nearly 40 years now of listening and buying.

There is some great music out there. There is some great new music out there.

Whether we like it, or not, the torch has passed to new generations, and, you know what? They are doing mighty fine, thank you very much.

Bloody echo in the room! LOL ABSOLUTELY, my Laz Welshman! 
2013 was amazing and 2014 looks just as good. There has never been MORE fabulous prog albums than in the last few years. We (and I) are all very attached to the classics and they are monuments that will last forever. But lately there have been 60-70 minutes prog albums of sheer genius. You don't want me to list them cos It will blow the PA server! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2014 at 23:07
Originally posted by yuribujuri yuribujuri wrote:

Absolutely, and sadly, the flame is gone. Certainly, the "prog genre" is full of live: a lot of bands from a great variety of countries, so many albums with great sound, awesome production and enjoyable live performances. All that is true. BUT... the "flame", the kind of innovative spirit, the gorgeous attitude of the seventies' bands is definitely gone. For a years I am looking for an album that give me a full and kinda spiritual experience like Close to the Edge, Dark Side or Selling England. No way man. The genre is alive but the historical moment with creativity and experimentation on top, with never-listened-music bands is gone for me, and the signal is not necessarily the low-rating albums of the "big 5". Nothing new is coming from the prog bands of our days. Great albums, yes, but nothing deeply stunning like before, IMHO. Smile

O Tempora o mores. Wink Different times, different values.  The technological age has killed the social need for escape. In the 70's, it was music, drugs and sex. Today its virtual sex, internet anonymity and I phones. 

Can't compare Mozart and Coldplay! or can you? Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 01:42
Originally posted by yuribujuri yuribujuri wrote:

Absolutely, and sadly, the flame is gone. Certainly, the "prog genre" is full of live: a lot of bands from a great variety of countries, so many albums with great sound, awesome production and enjoyable live performances. All that is true. BUT... the "flame", the kind of innovative spirit, the gorgeous attitude of the seventies' bands is definitely gone. For a years I am looking for an album that give me a full and kinda spiritual experience like Close to the Edge, Dark Side or Selling England. No way man. The genre is alive but the historical moment with creativity and experimentation on top, with never-listened-music bands is gone for me, and the signal is not necessarily the low-rating albums of the "big 5". Nothing new is coming from the prog bands of our days. Great albums, yes, but nothing deeply stunning like before, IMHO. Smile

Interesting post. The early seventies had something special because a number of key elements came together at the same time:

a) Great musicians (today has merely good musicians in many cases. for instance does any drummer wow you like Carl Palmer playing Pictures At An Exhibition or Wakeman playing Six Wives Of Henry Viii)
b) New tech both in recording and in terms of equipment ( ie Moog synths)
c) A media that took these bands seriously especially the music press
d) A number of amazing rock festivals that enabled a lot of these bands to break big

My point is that this was a once only deal. You are right that there are still many great albums but nothing that recreates that spirit of the original movement. Personally I don't mind that much. I still enjoy so much music being made now by bands that are inspired by what happened all those years ago.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 01:53
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Power To Believe is a great album so King Crimson can safely be left out of this hypothesis.( however read my later comments)

ELP's last album was crap but then they were virtually crippled and trying to churn out an album to save a dying record company ( they might just as well as bombed it for the good it did). Their last brilliant album anyway was 1973's Brain Salad Surgery

Yes - Relayer was the last time they made a significant progressive rock statement imo although there are plenty of good albums that followed and I do like the most recent.

Genesis and the descent into pop music has been discussed to death but then they stopped being a proper working band 20 years ago.

Jethro Tull is the one band of the big five I don't own much of. I'm guessing though that they haven't made anything as good as say Thick and A Brick or A Passion Play since those albums. They found massive success in the USA in the eighties although I gather a lot of it was not proggy . The recent stuff by ian Anderson I do own and its very good but not exactly earth shattering.

Other than KC the big five were on slippery slope from about 1975 onwards. King Crimson has bucked the trend by to all intents and purposes being an ongoing project of Robert Fripp rather than a band in any traditional way. A band has to have an ongoing collaboration of a core membership. King Criimson barely had that at all. Fripp decides what he wanted to to do and then recruites accordingly. Nothing wrong with that and avoids the possibility of lurching head first into self parody which often happens to bands that have been around for thousand of years.

I'm pretty sure that the new GonG album will be a materpiece.
As same as Endless River is Pink Floyd (last?) masterpiece.
I agreed that Power To Believe is a great King Crimson album. A five stars prog album, IMHO (without a doubt that's a shame that it's rated bellow 4.00)
 


Edited by Svetonio - November 11 2014 at 02:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 02:29
If one wants to believe the 'flame has gone out' then I wouldn't argue the fact.
What I hear these days is either borderline plagiarism, or a modification of an existing approach. It doesn't mean that there are no masterpieces that exist, but there is scarcely a new style being created........
The melding of unrelated genres, be it tech-metal and jazz, is just a 'variation' of what has gone before. I doubt there will be anything honestly 'unheard' of......
Think - Zappa attempted to play a bicycle all those years ago.......
Faust incorporated drills and jack-hammers to their live set. ....
Unless interplanetary beings visit us and offer gadgets hereto unseen by humankind, we will not hear anything we haven't heard before......
..............but as I say, doesn't mean that many haven't exceeded their influences.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 03:01
OK, some of the prog greats are not producing music comparable with their golden era. 

But for years, I made the mistake of comparing post Hackett Genesis with what had gone before and rubbishing it. When I started to think of them as a new band and judged them on their own merits, I began to find some of their music more enjoyable. 

Fly From Here is nowhere near as good as say, Close to the Edge. But do I enjoy it? Yes. So enjoy what they're producing in isolation and stop harking back to the glories of the past.

As for prog in general, Lazland has, as usual hit the nail on the head. With a year that has produced The Road of Bones, Men Who Climb Mountains and Steve Rothery's solo album The Ghosts of Pripyat, things cannot be that bad. There are more new acts making great music than for a long time and prog is getting more airings in the media than for a long time - and for a change, most are positive. Next year promises many new releases including strong rumours of a new Camel album, and Camel were one of the few bands to come back with immensely strong material in the 00s.

So the dinosaurs may be living on past glories but prog in general is alive and kicking.


Edited by Hercules - November 11 2014 at 08:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 03:21
The flame has not gone out: there have been some excellent prog releases during the last few years: Echolyn, Big Big Train, Deluge Grander, Days between Stations, Akt and Discipline to mention just a few - there are some more. I don't think we should cling to the old dinosaurs if the best thing we can do with them is dig their bones. They have done their job years ago and it was a good one: they have written history. But don't expect any of these 70's giants to release four or five star albums again, maybe you'll be surprised on some occasion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 05:34
Considering that most 70 year-olds take too long in the bank line and drive too slow in the goddam fast lane, I don't think one should be too hard on an aging group of prog musicians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 06:06
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Thomas Jefferson is dead, but Democracy lives on.

Kind of.

Spot on.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 08:29

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

... our heroes have fallen a little flat. As I look back at the last few releases from what has become roughly known as the big 5, I see them garnering lower and lower ratings. From ELP to Yes to King Crimson, none seem to be meeting their fan expectations.
...
(snip)
Has the flame carried by the innovators of this very divisive genre finally gone out?

YES!

Your children will grow up and you die and your "influence" will be over at any time!

Stop crying!

It's their time, and you already had yours!

This is grossly over rated, and I believe this is a bad study of "time" and the artistic/musical genre, in general.

No one, even here today, (other than a handfull, if that!), even discusses music here within a historical context. Any artistic scene, in the history of ALL the arts, usually only lasts so long ... and that's that.

Times change!

Feelings change!

For better or worse, in our view is not important ... that's life! So you thinking that your idea is better and such, is selfish, delusional and stupid!



Edited by moshkito - November 11 2014 at 08:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 08:47
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I have never felt so positive about the future of great progressive rock music. 2014 has energised me more than most previous years, and this in nearly 40 years now of listening and buying.

There is some great music out there. There is some great new music out there.
...
 
There is some great OLD music out there. There is some great NEW music out there.
 
(I did a little editing Laz!!)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 08:50
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Considering that most 70 year-olds take too long in the bank line and drive too slow in the goddam fast lane, I don't think one should be too hard on an aging group of prog musicians.
 
What did you say, son?
 
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Edited by moshkito - November 11 2014 at 09:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 09:16
Originally posted by Isa Isa wrote:

I've been wondering lately if prog musicians would have been much better off in their careers if they had constantly shifted around their member lineups, forming new bands and bouncing new ideas off each other.

That's exactly what Jazz artists did and the sheer output of great music, even just from the 50s and 60s, is enormous. That's why I have a lot of respect for Bill Bruford - he seemed to be one of the few who really caught onto this concept early on, leaving Yes right after CttE and what not.

Basically, my suspicion is that the flame goes out because the opportunity for inspired musical ideas grows stale after working with the same musicians for a long time.

I'll start by building on what Isa said.  When you work with the same people for too long, it's inevitable that at some point, you're going to stop being as progressive as you once were.  For instance, The Beatles recorded for less than 10 years and constantly innovated.  Would they have continued to do so?  I also think a lot of younger progressive bands are taking their influences from other sources than the classic prog bands that we love.  A large part of the music I listen to these days (I'm 48) is influenced by Extreme Metal or is in that category.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2014 at 09:45
Something I tried to say in a previous post, but made a terrible mess of and ended up deleting-I'll try again.

               This thread reminds me that we should thank our lucky stars that most of us live in a society where we can create, listen to, and appreciate and communicate about music in a free way.
                      It may not always be that way!
                      And it's people like in PA that keep the progressive rock flame going, no matter what. Look at all the diversity of opinions and focus here in these forums-it's an amazing and blessed thing.
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