Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Archeus

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 11:34

The Proto-Prog section will not be complete until The Beach Boys are added. Just my two cents on the issue.

Edited by Archeus - September 15 2014 at 11:34

What about dogs? What about cats? What about chickens?

The Dark Elf View Drop Down

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 13:45

King Crimson776 wrote:

NYSPORTSFAN wrote:

With your premise I guess The Velvet Underground should be proto-prog as their first couple of albums were avant-garde/rock albums and minimalistic?

No, because they are more experimental than avantgarde, and minimalistic is the opposite of prog.

The Dark Elf wrote:

I'm sorry, Steve, but claiming Good Vibrations is proto-prog is almost as ridiculous as saying Velvet Underground was prog. Almost.

Good Vibrations is surf music with a theremin thrown in. That doesn't constitute proto-prog.

If that's what Good Vibrations seems like to you, music might not be your thing. A Day in the Life is pop with an orchestral climax plastered on (actually, that's more accurate than what you said, seeing as Good Vibrations isn't surf music at all).

And...I'm supposed to be impressed with your alleged music credentials when you employ such a stunningly stultified comparison between Good Vibrations and A Day in the Life?

I'd be willing to bet more posters here, and musicologists as well, would tell you which song is proto-prog and which isn't.

Edited by The Dark Elf - September 15 2014 at 13:45

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Dean

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 13:49

SteveG wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:

SteveG wrote:

NYSPORTSFAN wrote:

I think we all respect Brian Wilson but they are not proto-prog IMO.

Pet Sounds while progressive has hardly has any rock elements, Smile was not released until way after the fact and Smiley Smile is disjointed. Another fact is The Beach Boys relied heavily on another musicians to play their instrumental parts.

The comparison to The Beatles fails miserably as they were doing the heavy hitting with Rubber Soul, Revolver, Strawberry Fields Forever/Penny Lane, Sgt. Peppers, Magical Mystery Tour, The White Album and Abbey Road.

Another point is let's look at Revolver diversity which The Beach Boys never even approached on one album and of course is progressive.

There is nothing in the Beach Boys catalog as progressive or innovative as "Tomorrow Never Knows" or "Strawberry Fields Forever"

"Taxman' proto hard rock/funk, "Love You To" World Music, "Eleanor Rigby" classical, "For No One (Lieder/Art Song), "I'm Only Sleeping" psych/folk, "She Said She Said" Acid Rock", "And Your Bird Can Sing" Power Pop/ Twin Guitar Leads, "Yellow Submarine" Psych Novelty Song", "Got to Get You Into My Life" psych/soul and "Tomorrow Never Knows" basically invents a couple of genres IMO.

When someone says The Beach Boys are proto-prog please give me a break.

Good Vibrations was the epitome of Proto prog. You have had your break, now go take another.

I'm sorry, Steve, but claiming Good Vibrations is proto-prog is almost as ridiculous as saying Velvet Underground was prog. Almost.

Good Vibrations is surf music with a theremin thrown in. That doesn't constitute proto-prog.

I always feel sad when musicians make sweeping generalizations as music, like anything else, suffers if people don't know the history of past things and events more completely. How do you know where going if your not sure where you have been?

To say that Good Vibrations is nothing more than surf music with a Theramin would be like saying that Folk Rock is simply Folk music played on an electric guitar. For the record I will state that I personally don't care for the Beach Boys, early Beatles or the voice of Bob Dylan but I do care about the truth, so I have to use these artists in my post.

The 60's is often thought simply as a time of change. That is incorrect. It was a time of people changing. To get back to folk rock which for all intents and puposes was partially created by Dylan by performing at the staid 1965 Newport Folk Festival with an electric band to back up his new musical approach. This caused an incrededible uproar in the folk circles of the time, but the point is that Dylan recognised that he had to put a 4/4 beat under his songs and create a rhythm section with bass and drums. He also knew that going rock was going to involve placing a middle eight section in his songs to be played by either electric guitar or keyboards. For his electric Newport band, he brought in electric blues guitarist Mike Bloomfield to back him and solo. The Byrds had already perfected this folk rock concept with the hit Mr. Tambourine Man. (Incidentally writen by Dylan.) Dylan followed suit and Folk Music and Folk Rock became seperate entities, forever.

The Beatles who get so much credit for innovation, and rightly so, were also highly influenced by outside musical sources. They did not invent Rock 'n' Roll but picked up it's mantle and moved forward. Their first big influence was Mr. Dylan and his newly introspective songwriting, that tickled John Lennon's fancy the most. it came out on songs like "You've got to hide your love away", "Ticket to ride" and later on, but musicaly hidden, on "Help. It was with this growth that The Beatles started to expand their bounderies to include new musical themes and lyrics, as well as changing personal and social factors, that brought us all the way up from Meet The Beatles to Sgt. Pepper's.

Brian Wilson was also seeking change. Surf Music was a south California music genre that developed in the late 1950's with the magical Dick Dale and his signature sounding "wet'' reverb Fender Mustang guitar that went on influence other surf music instrumental groups of the early 60's like the Ventures. If you've ever heard the song "Wipe Out" by The Surfaris with it's incessant rhythm, you know what Surf Music sounds like. Wilson and the Beach Boys used this template along with the multi part harmony vocals of 50's group The Four Freshman to make up the Beach Boy's surf sound. With Pet Sounds, Wison wanted to go past the surf sound and it's themes of surfer girls and hot rods.

For Pet Sounds he brought in a outside lyricist because he wanted someone to flesh out his more personal lyrics along with a more sophisticated way of composing that would employ more sophisticated arrangements and sessions musicians. He would also employ very different musical instruments in place of the stardard surf music combo of two guitars, bass and drums. While utilizing those instruments he would supplant them with organ, piano, tympani, sleigh bells, clarinet, bass clarinet, tenor and saprono saxophone, trumpet, trumbone, flutes, cello, violins, violas, and most strangely, harpsichord. He would also use the Theramin for the first time on any recorded Rock song. ("I know there's am answer" was the song.)

Pet Sounds was so removed from Surf Music that record company Capital was shocked by it and fellow Beach Boy co-founder and co-leader Mike Love was so disgusted by Wilson's change in musical direction that he called the new music on Pet Sounds Brian's "Ego Music". The Beach Boys' fans were disappointed by the album as well and it was the first poor selling BB's album of the 60's in America.

Simply put, Pet Sounds was no longer Surf Music. It was something else for it's time. Pop by today's standards, it was almost without musical category when it was released in 1966. And so was the hit "Good Vibrations" that immidiately followed it. The twangy Dick Dale inspired manic tempo'ed music about hot rods, Woody's and making out at the Drive-in was gone. Like Folk Rock splitting away from Folk, Pet Sounds had split away from Surf. (But the Pet Sounds split off involved the lyrics as well as the music, so it went further off than Folk Rock from Folk Music.)

So much, that a group called the Beatles, that were so heavily insipred by the lyrics of Bob Dylan and were on their own musical exploration, took notice.

The elephant in the room is still the question about if the Beach Boys are Proto Prog, but it's nice to get the facts out in order to answer that question.

Well.. that's not the elephant in the room, in a thread that asks the question whether the Beach Boys should be considered to be Proto Prog which a few of us are discussing claiming that your opinion is something that no one wants to discuss is erroneous. The elephant in the room that David was referring to was whether the Beach Boys should be considered for Proto Prog, ie should they be proposed to the Admins by a 5-star collaborator for inclusion in to the Proto Prog category. The key to that of course is finding a 5-star collab who is willing to propose them and thus far you haven't (and that is no guarantee that the Admins will approve the addition, as I said: a band can have all the right credentials to be added and still be rejected). Personally I don't see that their experimental psychedelic proto Art Rock is in any way connected to Progressive Rock so cannot be regarded as Proto Prog, not all Art Rock is Progressive Rock (Art Rock is not synonymous with Prog Rock), similarly not all experimental music is Progressive Rock, not all experimental psychedelic rock is proto-prog and not all avant garde is Avant Prog. Picky musicologist pigeon-holing that inevitably is, but there you go, once you start putting music into boxes by claiming that Album X or Band Y is of a particular genre then that's how it goes.

Anyway, I like a bit of getting the facts in order so first off: The Beach Boys never used a theremin so they could not have been the first to use said instrument in a Rock song, that honour probably goes to The Rolling Stones (of all people)... the Beach Boys used a theremin-like instrument called alternatively a Tannerin or electro-theremin (as it is erroneously called) which bears as much resemblance to a true theremin as a swanee whistle does to a trombone. To the non-technically minded that distinction may not be apparent but in all respects the operation of a tannerin is completely different to a theremin, [which generates an audio signal by heterodyning two RF oscillators to produce an audible "beat" frequency, as opposed to the tannerin that uses a simple audio tone generator purchased from Radio Shack]. This results in a completely different (and somewhat unique) timbre that none of the pseudo-theremins can truly emulate. Also the method of playing (in the hands of an expert - like Pamelia Kurstin) of the theremin gives far more control than a tannerin as it is possible to play a theremin without portmanteau (though people seldom do - part of the attraction of the instrument is that spacey portmanteau sound). The first Beach Boys song to feature the tannerin was not 'I Know There Is An Answer', not but 'I Just Wasn't made for These Times', but that is by-the-by.

You are 100% correct that Pet Sounds (and 'Good Vibrations') is not Surf music though the Beach Boys will be forever associated with the Surf music and Hot Rods even if they moved away from that narrow form of music around the time they stopped wearing striped shirts and white slacks (and after Brian Wilson withdrew from live performance). It is an unfortunate association that they tried unsuccessfully to shake off (especially on the ironically titled Surf's Up) but such is life.

'Good Vibrations' is unconventional in structure [chorus, verse 1, chorus, interlude, verse 2, chorus, coda] but it is not suite-like, side two of Beach Boys Today! is close to being suite-like, but no one is ever going to claim that album as Proto Prog - The Who's 'A Quick One, While He's Away' is suite-like and is far more representative of a musical suite as used in Prog Rock in that respect (that track is often cited as one of the "first" progressive rock songs).

What?

SteveG

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 14:10

^Electro-Theremin Vs. Theremin? Is this what we are splitting hairs about now? Well, you at least got to the point of the post.

You are correct in that an Electro-Theremin (Tannerin) was actually used on "I wasn't made for these times." Instead of "I know there's an Answer", and it's style of playing (hands on or off). However, with recording signal manipulation, an Electro-theremin can sound just like the real thing (UFO spooky,) just like on Good Vibrations.

As far as the elephant in the room, I was referring to the Admin team looking into changing the Beach Boys to Proto prog and never said that it wasn't considered or that I even cared. I not sure where you got that from.

If you personally consider the Beach Boys to be Proto Prog or not is not really my concern. My concern is to clearly outline what type of music the Beach Boys created with the inception of Pet Sounds and concluding with the song Good Vibrations, released after as a single, and provoke a discussion. I never expected my question to ever go further than that but the aim of discussions, at least to me, is to share and learn. Everything after that is a plus.

I probably had "I know there's an Answer" on my mind because it's the most Prog like song I know of by the Beach Boys. The instrumental break with it's dynamic tempo changes, pulsing organ and clear, clean and distinctive bass lines would definitely have inspired both Tony Kaye and Chris Squire and I would look them both straight in the eye and tell them bull____ if the they had denied it.

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Edited by SteveG - September 16 2014 at 09:24

Friday13th View Drop Down

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 15:33

The Beach Boys definitely had proto-prog moments on par with the Beatles at the time. The previously mentioned "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" has the electro-theremin solo, counterpoint vocal harmonies, etc., and "Good Vibrations" is not one bit surf rock. I can play it on the bass, and it shifts keys multiple times, with the chorus melody being in the descending minor/ascending major scale often used in jazz. It inspired Strawberry Fields and a bunch of other stuff we have accepted as proto-prog. Now, to categorize them as proto-prog is a different story. The only albums we'd be considering are Pet Sounds and Smile/Smiley, and overall they're still a pop band at heart. They just had a mad genius briefly running the show.

SteveG

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 15:38

^Is a little pregnant not pregnant?

Just joshing. Good post, thanks.

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Edited by SteveG - September 15 2014 at 15:46

Dean

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 17:44

SteveG wrote:

Electro-Theremin Vs. Theremin? Is this what we are splitting hairs about now? Well, you at least got to the point of the post.

Being snippy is unnecessary. Getting the facts in order is not splitting hairs, your factual post had two factual inaccuracies that I corrected, the corrections do not diminish or weaken your post in any way.

If I see a factual error I cannot ignore it, sorry about that, it is the way I am, it is what makes me a good Engineer and a lousy Artist (and no one is more disappointed by that than me).

SteveG wrote:

With modern recording manipulation anything is possible, however, the tannerin in Good Vibrations was not studio manipulated and does not sound like a theremin, not even remotely. It is a pure sinewave tone with no harmonics, the vibrato lacks the delicacy of touch that only a 'hetrodyning' theremin can achieve and the portmanteau is slower than that of a theremin - these are not a matter of how it is played (hands-on or hands-off) but how the tone is fundamentally generated in the electronics. I have made several pseudo-theremins (mechanical, optical and resistive) including one using an off-the-shelf audio oscillator similar to the Radio Shack one that Paul Tanner used and I own a genuine Bob Moog Etherwave theremin, they are very different in practically every respect.

SteveG wrote:

As far as the elephant in the room, I was referring to the Admin team looking into changing the Beach Boys to Proto prog and never said that it wasn't considered or that I even cared. I not sure where you got that from.

Okay, I misunderstood what you were getting at, my apologies, I presumed when you said "...is still the question..." you were still referring to the question you posed back in Post 1 of Page 1 of this thread, somehow I missed the change in emphasis. My bad.

The Admin team will not look at anything until a 5-star collab formally proposes the Beach Boys to them, the humongous pachyderm of which no one will speak is finding one of the ninety plus 5-star collabs we have around here who is prepared to do that - (even discounting me as one of those who will not do that for you), statistically speaking that should not be too difficult...

SteveG wrote:

If you personally consider the Beach Boys to be Proto Prog or not is not really my concern. My concern is to clearly outline what type of music the Beach Boys created with the inception of Pet Sounds and concluding with the song Good Vibrations, released after as a single, and provoke a discussion. I never expected my question to ever go further than that but the aim of discussions, at least to me, is to share and learn. Everything after that is a plus.

so my opinion is now of no concern, fair enough, do I go back to dodging the issue now?

SteveG wrote:

I probably had "I know there's an Answer" on my mind because it's the most Prog like song I know of by the Beach Boys. The instrumental break with it's dynamic tempo changes, pulsing organ and clear, clean and distinctive bass lines would definitely have inspired both Tony Kaye and Chris Squire and I would look them both straight in the eye and tell them bull____ if the they had denied it.

So...?

SteveG wrote:

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Doing the wrong thing is never superfluous.

What?

NYSPORTSFAN View Drop Down

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 17:48

Atavachron wrote:

NYSPORTSFAN wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

"Smile" was never released except as a nostalgic semi-official 'collectors release' years later (unless you mean Brian Wilson Presents Smile), but the session tapes Wilson had made for "Smile" were circulating not long after recording began. Smiley Smile is indeed disjointed. So what? What does that have to do with being or not being protoprog? It was among the first American avantgarde rock albums in history.

With your premise I guess The Velvet Underground should be proto-prog as their first couple of albums were avant-garde/rock albums and minimalistic?

There is no 'premise' and I have no agenda. Artists are not added to PA because they compare well with other artists deemed progressive. The Beach Boys were a rock band that was, or became, an art-rock band. If that bothers you, tough.

I like the Beach Boys or in this case really Brian Wilson but compared to what The Beatles were doing not even close in terms of being progressive.

Eleanor Rigby": Modal Music set to a string Octet- No Traditional rock instruments

"Love To You": A complete fusion of Indian raga with instruments tabla, tamboura and sitar,

"Tomorrow Never Knows": Avant-garde techniques for the most part basically unused by rock bands through the modification of sound through unconventional techniques tape loops/backward music/sound collage.

By the way I would never consider the Velvet Underground as proto-prog. Just making a point you might as well consider every rock band from The Rolling Stones to the Byrds or any band flirting with psychedelia or avant garde influences as proto-prog then?

Edited by NYSPORTSFAN - September 15 2014 at 17:54

SteveG

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 19:31

Dean wrote:

<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">

SteveG wrote:

</span><span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"> Electro-Theremin Vs. Theremin? Is this what we are splitting hairs about now? Well, you at least got to the point of the post.

</span><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Being snippy is unnecessary. Getting the facts in order is not splitting hairs, your factual post had two factual inaccuracies that I corrected, the corrections do not diminish or weaken your post in any way. <div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;"><div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">If I see a factual error I cannot ignore it, sorry about that, it is the way I am, it is what makes me a good Engineer and a lousy Artist (and no one is more disappointed by that than me).

SteveG wrote:

</span>

SteveG wrote:

</span>As far as the elephant in the room, I was referring to the Admin team looking into changing the Beach Boys to Proto prog and never said that it wasn't considered or that I even cared. I not sure where you got that from.

Okay, I misunderstood what you were getting at, my apologies, I presumed when you said "...<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">is still the question...</span>" you were <b style="text-decoration: underline;">still referring to the question you posed back in Post 1 of Page 1 of this thread, somehow I missed the change in emphasis. My bad.

SteveG wrote:

</span>If you personally consider the Beach Boys to be Proto Prog or not is not really my concern. My concern is to clearly outline what type of music the Beach Boys created with the inception of Pet Sounds and concluding with the song Good Vibrations, released after as a single, and provoke a discussion. I never expected my question to ever go further than that but the aim of discussions, at least to me, is to share and learn. Everything after that is a plus.

so my opinion is now of no concern, fair enough, do I go back to dodging the issue now?

SteveG wrote:

</span>I probably had "I know there's an Answer" on my mind because it's the most Prog like song I know of by the Beach Boys. The instrumental break with it's dynamic tempo changes, pulsing organ and clear, clean and distinctive bass lines would definitely have inspired both Tony Kaye and Chris Squire and I would look them both straight in the eye and tell them bull____ if the they had denied it.

So...?<span style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">

SteveG wrote:

</span>"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

<div style="line-height: 14.3999996185303px;">Doing the wrong thing is never superfluous.

If the Theremin had been used in the BB's songs for anything other than a cheap atmospheric effect, I would agree with you. But since it was not, then I do not.

I apologize if you thought my tone was snippy. But my lack of concern was weather the BB's are to be listed as Proto or not, not just your opinion only.

As for your attention to my post, do what you feel is right. Remember:

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Dean

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 20:11

SteveG wrote:

If the Theremin had been used in the BB's songs for anything other than a cheap atmospheric effect, I would agree with you. But since it was not, then I do not.

This comment does not make sense to me, nor do I get what it is in my comments regarding the Theremin and/or the Tannerin that you disagree with.

The Theremin wasn't used on any Beach Boys song and while one could argue (and probably win) that on Good Vibrations and Wild Honey the Tannerin is merely an atmospheric effect, but on I Just Wasn't Made for These Times it isn't, as F13th pointed out, it has a solo - in each of these songs the sound made by the Tannerin is recognisable as being NOT made by a theremin.

SteveG wrote:

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Actually that isn't strictly correct, but I'll let it ride. The trick is knowing what the right thing is.

What?

Atavachron View Drop Down

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Posted: September 15 2014 at 20:46

Good god can we all please brush up on our posting and formatting, it's not rocket science and would save tons of page space and keep the conversation at least partly readable.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy

SteveG

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 08:56

Dean wrote:

SteveG wrote:

If the Theremin had been used in the BB's songs for anything other than a cheap atmospheric effect, I would agree with you. But since it was not, then I do not.

This comment does not make sense to me, nor do I get what it is in my comments regarding the Theremin and/or the Tannerin that you disagree with.

SteveG wrote:

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Actually that isn't strictly correct, but I'll let it ride. The trick is knowing what the right thing is.

Time to get the house in order. I didn't realize until last night that you had a sincere interest in the Theremin as a bonifide musical instrument, of which it is. It is also technically fascinating but please understand that an extraneous conversation between you and I about one only serves to misdirect the points I made in my post about the musical accomplishments of Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations in popular music and why. I initially assumed that your first post about the Theremin was over the top and purposefully distracting, But assuming does make an ass out of people and I have no problem with wearing that badge for today.

As for the Tannerin solo in "I just wasn't made for these times", if memory serves me correctly and when it comes to actual music and sounds, it rarely fails, (I do not have a working copy of Pet Sounds, only a mint vinyl copy for collecting purposes and have not listened to the album in over 20 years) was no more than a few "notes" or oscillations lasting no more than perhaps 10-13 seconds and sounded like an early Rickenbacker "Frying pan" lap steel guitar with an unadorned watery tone. I believe the Tannerin was just briefly used for it's novelty only for that song, being something new that Wilson was able to get his hands on. The point of my bringing up the Tannerin in the first place was demonstrate the wide varity of instruments used in the recording of Pet Sounds as compared the Beatles more limited use of same on both Rubber Soul and Revolver.

I hope this clears up the Theremin Vs. Tannerin discussion and we can move back to the posted topic.

BTW, my hyperbolic theoretical conversation between Messrs. Kaye and Squire was done solely to redirect the post back to the question of "Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto Prog."

I also hope that this post has cleared the air between us.

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Edited by SteveG - September 16 2014 at 10:03

SteveG

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 09:10

Atavachron wrote:

Good god can we all please brush up on our posting and formatting, it's not rocket science and would save tons of page space and keep the conversation at least partly readable.

I will gladly re-edit my posts Mr. A, but you will never see this many pages In a PA post that are dedicated to a Beach Boys discussion again. LOL

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous".

chopper

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 09:20

Well, I'd never heard of a Tannerin before so I've learnt something new here.

To put my two penny worth in here, I feel Les Garcons de la Plage warrant at least a mention in proto-prog for Good Vibrations, Surf's Up and it's columnated ruins, Smile and their influence on The Fabs if nothing else, however I won't lose any sleep if they're not included.

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 09:25

SteveG wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

Good god can we all please brush up on our posting and formatting, it's not rocket science and would save tons of page space and keep the conversation at least partly readable.

...... you will never see this many pages In a PA post that are dedicated to a Beach Boys discussion again. LOL

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous"

Thank God...........

One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 09:27

chopper wrote:

Well, I'd never heard of a Tannerin before so I've learnt something new here.

Thanks for the support. I think. LOL

SteveG

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 09:28

dr wu23 wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Atavachron wrote:

Good god can we all please brush up on our posting and formatting, it's not rocket science and would save tons of page space and keep the conversation at least partly readable.

...... you will never see this many pages In a PA post that are dedicated to a Beach Boys discussion again. LOL

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous"

Thank God...........

My thoughts exactly! LOL

Wake me when it's over.

Edited by SteveG - September 16 2014 at 09:29

SteveG

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 09:52

I'm sorry NYSF, but you got a little lost in the suffle, It was never my intention to claim that the Beach Boys were as progressive as the Beatles. Only that Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations have Proto Prog merits of their own and the fact that Pet Sounds in particular had a multi instrumental backing that was more ornate and baroque than anything that the Beatles did up to that point, including Revolver.

It was indeed the catalyst for the Beatles to go with multi instrumental session musician backing on many songs on Sgt. Pepper's, and that to me is enough of an influence.

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Edited by SteveG - September 16 2014 at 10:07

Dean

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Posted: September 16 2014 at 10:07

SteveG wrote:

Time to get the house in order. I didn't realize until last night that you had a sincere interest in the Theremin as a bonifide musical instrument, of which it is. It is also technically fascinating but please understand that an extraneous conversation between you and I about one only serves to misdirect the points I made in my post about the musical accomplishments of Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations in popular music and why. I intially assumed that your first post about the Theremin was over the top and purposefully distracting, But assuming does make an ass out of people and I have no problem with wearing that badge for today.

As for the Tannerin solo in "I just wasn't made for these times", if memory serves me correctly and when it comes to actual music and sounds, it rarely fails, (I do not have a working copy of Pet Sounds, only a mint vinyl copy for collecting purposes and have not listened to the album in over 20 years) was no more than a few "notes" or oscillations lasting no more than perhaps 10-13 seconds and sounded like an early Rickenbacker "Frying pan" lap steel guitar with an unadorned watery tone. I believe the Tannerin was just briefly used for it's novelty only for that song, being something new that Wilson was able to get his hands on. The point of my bringing up the Tannerin in the first place was demonstrate the wide varity of instruments used in the recording of Pet Sounds as compared the Beatles more limited use of same on both Rubber Soul and Revolver.

I hope this clears up the Theremin Vs. Tannerin discussion and we can move back to the posted topic.

Ah, I see the confusion. You did claim "first use" and that's kind of a serious claim that needed addressing. Whether the Tannerin was used as a valid serious instrument or a novelty effect is splitting hairs and of no concern me. However, I still fail to understand exactly what in my comments regarding the Tannerin and Theremin that you disagree with. I only ask this for the sake of clarity in this now clearish air.

We don't do instrument counts in artist evaluations but if we did then we'd award more marks to the band that played the most instruments themselves. (fortunately music and musicianship is not a contest) Tongue

What?

SteveG

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Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: September 16 2014 at 10:20

^Only that the limited novelity use of the Tannerin negated the need for more sophiticated studio manipulation that was available at the time that it was recorded, that's all. You are correct in that the engineering of that time could not make a Tannerin sound like a true Theremin which does indeed have true musical and tonal qualities.

"Doing the right thing is never superfluous."

Edited by SteveG - September 16 2014 at 10:21