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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto?
    Posted: September 05 2014 at 08:41
Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto Prog because of Brian Wilson's employment of suite like movements and sophisticated lush musical arrangements for Pet Sounds?

Edited by SteveG - September 05 2014 at 08:48
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 08:58
Have you tried searching the forums before asking? This is not exactly a new question....



A few good reasons to say 'no'  are listed here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=87814


Edited by Angelo - September 05 2014 at 13:06
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 09:27
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Have you tried searching the forums before asking? This is not exactly a new question....

http://www.progarchives.com/google-search-results.asp?cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=beach+boys&cx=partner-pub-0447992028883143%3Abrdi7c3wepz&sa=submit&siteurl=www.progarchives.com%2F&ref=&ss=


A few good reasons to say 'no'  are listed here: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=87814
I generally don't like going by past practice as people's perceptions and tastes often change, hence the new inquiry.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 10:24
The Beach Boys music hasn't magically changed and neither has people's perceptions of it. Nor should we disregard or ignore what has been said in the past. 

As I said in the past, Pet Sounds has some of the prerequisites for Proto-Prog but does that make it Proto Prog? (Yeah, it was a rhetorical question). It could be viewed as being Proto Art Rock as it has far more in common with the flavour of Art Rock that didn't crossover into Progressive Rock territory, so from that perspective it was certainly far more influential on those Art Rock artists - I'm not sure it ever influenced Progressive Rock directly. 

Just to clarify - not all Art Rock is Prog Rock, here at the PA some Art Rock that doesn't quite qualify as Prog we put into Prog Related and some we ignore completely (Velvet Underground anyone?) - this would make Proto Art Rock kinda Proto Prog Related, so therefore would not qualify as Proto Prog.

Hence a "no" from me. 
What?
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 10:53
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Should the Beach Boys be considered Proto Prog because of Brian Wilson's employment of suite like movements and sophisticated lush musical arrangements for Pet Sounds?

I would tend to lean more upon the subject of SMILE. Not the Brian Wilson release. The Beach Boys release which enters the areas of Avant-Garde. The songwriting contains elements of what existed on Pet Sounds, but more progressed or modern...even timeless. Regarding this concept of writing and understanding how the album should sound in it's entirety prior to recording it was evident sometimes in the music of The Beatles. Smile was bizzare and completely loony in various sections and can't be attributed to an influence over an abundance of musicians that wrote Progressive Rock in the 70's because the album was never officially released. However...many famous musicians had the bootleg tapes in the 70's and so I could be wrong.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 16:22
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The Beach Boys music hasn't magically changed and neither has people's perceptions of it.
You and I always seem to have disagreements over my questioning these 'written in stone' declarations from the past, as if some statement like yours above is supposed to dissuade from inquiring about how things stand in the present. That it is futile should be apparent by now, and that you view other people's perceptions to be as unchanging as your own is even more remarkable to me.
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Points: 2111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 16:27
No and it's as simple as that really.
“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 16:42
^I don't always understand Dean but I do appreciate now that he generally supplies an intelligent well thought out answer to my questions, so thanks MI.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 19:07
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The Beach Boys music hasn't magically changed and neither has people's perceptions of it.
You and I always seem to have disagreements over my questioning these 'written in stone' declarations from the past, as if some statement like yours above is supposed to dissuade from inquiring about how things stand in the present. That it is futile should be apparent by now, and that you view other people's perceptions to be as unchanging as your own is even more remarkable to me.

I stated that the music hasn't changed and neither has people's perceptions of it. I did not state that people's perceptions are unchanging. People's perceptions (including my own) do change, but there is invariable a reason for that change, some new evidence or outlook that caused the re-appraisal. So now I ask directly: What could have possibly occurred in the past two years to have changed people's perception of a 48 year old album? 
 
I am permitted to state my opinion however futile that may be, and yes I know this perennial topic will be raised again and again along with the all the other bands that don't fit here (but people really really think they should) like the Yardbirds, the Grateful Dead, the Velvet Underground, XTC and Stratovarious, and I know that no one has ever had their opinion changed during an internet forum discussion, and I know that everyone (including me) thinks their opinion is better than everyone else's, and I know that people's perceptions once formed are damn difficult to change, and I know that if I keep asking the same question I'm going to get the same answer every time, (unless it's the 'are we there yet?' car-journey mantra).

And (believe it or not) I do not have a problem with people questioning anything, in fact I positively encourage it, but I have huge problem with people being completely dismissive of anything.

Feel free to question what is 'written in stone'. But at least be prepared for some level of rebuttal and don't be too shocked or defensive when it arrives (which it most surely will). In my experience those who question how we do things around here often don't actually know how we do things around here, and that's kinda nutty. Assumptions make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'mptions' (or something like that).

The thing is with all these perennial topics - no one ever brings anything new to the table - no one ever seems to have read any of the earlier posts on the subject or have done any research on why a band is rejected - all they do is repeat the same "pro" points that have been said before and assume that people will now magically agree with them... waiting for people's perception to change of its own volition seems a very strange process to me.
What?
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Points: 1281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 21:25
Not really. Like the Velvet Underground and Judas Priest, the Beach Boys had some stuff that either had some prog elements or influence progressive rock in one way or another, but not enough to merit a full on inclusion. Their prog period only lasted about two years - with Pet Sounds and The Smile Sessions - but quickly faded once Brian Wilson stopped being the sole dominant force of the group.

But that's just me basing it on the criteria the site uses. 


Edited by KingCrInuYasha - September 05 2014 at 21:26
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Points: 13049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2014 at 22:13
And we'll have prog, prog, prog
Till my daddy takes the T-bird away...

[Insert Robert Fripp lead]

...I'm picking up prog vibrations,
Prog's giving me ex-ci-tations.

Ummm...no. Definitely not.
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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 09:32
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The Beach Boys music hasn't magically changed and neither has people's perceptions of it.
You and I always seem to have disagreements over my questioning these 'written in stone' declarations from the past, as if some statement like yours above is supposed to dissuade from inquiring about how things stand in the present. That it is futile should be apparent by now, and that you view other people's perceptions to be as unchanging as your own is even more remarkable to me.
<span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">I stated that the music hasn't changed and neither has people's perceptions of it. I did not state that people's perceptions are unchanging. </span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">People's perceptions (including my own) do change, but there is invariable a reason for that change, some new evidence or outlook that caused the re-appraisal. </span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">So now I ask directly: </span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">What could have possibly occurred in the past two years to have changed people's perception of a 48 year old album? </span><br style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"> </span><div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">I am permitted to state my opinion however futile that may be, <span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">and yes I know this perennial topic will be raised again and again along with the all the other bands that don't fit here (but people really really think they should) like the Yardbirds, the Grateful Dead, the Velvet Underground, XTC and Stratovarious, and I know that no </span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">one has ever had their opinion changed during an internet forum discussion, and I know that everyone </span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">(including me)</span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"> thinks their opinion is better than everyone </span><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">else's</span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">, and I know that people's perceptions once formed are damn difficult to change, and I know that if I keep asking the same question I'm going to get the same answer every time, (unless it's the 'are we there yet?' car-journey mantra).</span>
<div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"></span><div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">And (believe it or not) I do not have a problem with people questioning anything, in fact I positively encourage it, but I have huge problem with people being completely dismissive of anything.</span><div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"></span><div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">Feel free to question what is 'written in stone'. But at least be prepared for some level of </span>rebuttal<span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"> and don't be too shocked or defensive when it arrives (which it most surely will). I</span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">n my experience those who question </span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">how we do things around here often don't actually know how we do things around here, and that's kinda nutty. </span><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">Assumptions</span><span style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"> make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'mptions' (or something like that).</span><div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"><div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;"><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">The thing is with all these perennial topics - no one ever brings anything new to the table - no one ever seems to have read any of the earlier posts on the subject or have done any research on why a band is rejected - all they do is repeat the same "pro" points that have been said before and assume that people will now magically agree with them... waiting for people's perception to change of its own </span>volition<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;"> seems a very strange process to me.</span><div style="font-size: 11.8181819915771px; line-height: 13.0909080505371px;">
<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;"></span>


Just to clear the air, your original response was not futile and indeed was quite informative, and you have made some good points in the above noted post. I do indeed read past posts but as I've said, they mean me little to me but if you and a small hand full are the ones deciding what's Proto, Prog Related, etc, then my questions certainly are fruitless and that's said without prejudice. It's just the way it is, as they say.

Edited by SteveG - September 06 2014 at 09:35
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 09:51
Of course that the Beach Boys ought to be in PA' Proto Prog / Prog Related section.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 10:26
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Of course that the Beach Boys ought to be in PA' Proto Prog / Prog Related section.
I've finally got a witness!
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 10:49
Originally posted by KingCrInuYasha KingCrInuYasha wrote:


(...) Their prog period only lasted about two years - with Pet Sounds and The Smile Sessions (...)

Actually, that's enough for Proto Prog / Prog Related section. Those albums are prog. Also, especialy with Pet Sounds, The Beach Boys did exerts very strong influence to many prog musicians who were just started their careers.
A same thing is with The Grateful Dead who are not in Proto Prog / Prog Related section yet although The Dead were released at least two full prog albums - Blues For Allah and Terrapin Station + they were one of two or three the most important bands of 60's Psychedelia movement - actually the most important movement for the birth of Progressive rock.
The Steve Miller Band also ought to be here because of their first two albums from 1968 - "the milestones of the progressive rock genre" as Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden wrote about Sailor and Children of the Future in The illustrated NME Encyclopedia of Rock (1977) as well - together with e.g. the same year released Music In A Doll's House by Family. Steve Miller left the prog genre later on, what means that The Steve Miller Band would not to be in a full PA' prog section, but have to be in PA' Proto Prog / Prog Related section without a question.






Edited by Svetonio - September 06 2014 at 18:23
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 10:55
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Of course that the Beach Boys ought to be in PA' Proto Prog / Prog Related section.
I've finally got a witness!
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 11:23
Well Paul always said that Sgt Pepper was a reaction to Pet Sounds that came out the year before.
I'd say The Beach Boys were very progressive, but rock? Nah....more like progressive pop.
Since I joined the admin team I've also been part of the prog related and proto 'teams', so in the end this lands on my doorstep if any collabs decide to suggest them for proto or related.
My take on it is that we should include them, if we were a progressive pop site, no question about that, but we're not. As for the influence factor, then I guess you'll find a fair few prog acts who felt influenced by them, but then again you'll find just as many claiming Stockhausen, Varese and Shostakovich to have been the main factors of inspiration - all of which were incredibly progressive for their day. Should we start including these as well?
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 18:19
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

And we'll have prog, prog, prog
Till my daddy takes the T-bird away...

[Insert Robert Fripp lead]

...I'm picking up prog vibrations,
Prog's giving me ex-ci-tations.

Ummm...no. Definitely not.
Progger girl,
My little Progger girl.....
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Points: 1195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 21:28
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

No and it's as simple as that really.
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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 06 2014 at 22:34
As a big fan of numerous albums from the various Beach Boys periods, even right up to that plastic sounding self titled album 1985 album, I can safely say there is very little other that sporadic moments scattered across a few albums that would suggest prog-related. An inventive, PROGRESSIVE, daring and experimental pop unit in a few spots no doubt, especially on `Pet Sounds', `Smiley Smile' and parts of the superb `Surf's Up' album, but that's as far as I'd go.

But what a charming and impossibly melodic group of individuals, I'm a very proud owner of most of their discs

I'd love to think The Byrds would have a spot on the Archives, but they're in exactly the same boat as the Beach Boys on this occasion.
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