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Svetonio 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
 Posted: September 01 2014 at 04:09 |
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So in 15 years we should expect inclusion of Lene Lovich to PA too
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 04:40 |
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You have outlined criteria by which I more-or-less determine whether a particular artist or album gets included into my record collection or not. I would not use the same criteria for music that is included into a database of Progressive Rock. I do not find this boxed or linear, and I would hope that the bands I have introduced, voted for and included here are a testament to that. I always worked on the principle of "best fit" rather than "exact fit" during evaluations and to do that I still needed to recognise demarcation lines between genres and subgenres regardless of how blurred and ill defined they may be. For me rejecting bands was never easy and we did/do consider every suggestion on the merits of the music alone, detached from any preconceptions or personal bias and strived to be as objective as possible. I have stated many times in the past that additions to the database are incremental: every addition changes the entry criteria by some subtle degree because artists do not work within the strict confines of any pigeon-holing imposed by record labels, critics and the listening public. You cannot extrapolate (or interpolate) a linear progression from one inclusion to the next, but several unrelated additions can lead to the possibility of suggesting and evaluating another artist that previously would not have been considered, this does not result in an automatic shoe-in even when applying a "best fit" philosophy - the music has to be evaluated against the subgenre as a whole and not a subset of it. Within the strict guidelines of Prog Related as specified on the PR page we could include considerably more artists that we currently do, but that would significantly alter the whole nature and emphasis of this site and what it is for.
It is and it isn't, we are a pigeon-holing fraternity, all music fans are even when they are determined not to be. That goes way beyond just sorting albums into "like" and "dislike" or the vagaries of an open or closed mind. Even the most open-minded and eclectic music-lover will categorise music by some form of organised sorting of styles, genres and loose associations.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 05:04 |
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As much as I dig Ultravox, I don't think they belong on PA. I think we have to draw the line somewhere. With time this site has become something of splitting hairs lounge, where we determine whether or not X music is prog/progressive. More than often, it's when we hear music, which were progressive for it's day as being prog that the quibbles start.
Ultravox were never part of the prog rock scene though - just like Wire, Pere Ubu and Chrome, which all are acts I personally consider to have more of a "progressive" mindset than Ultravox......and as much as I adore those bands, they don't fit in on this site either - progressive or not. If all a band has to do is play rock and progressively (for it's day), then that would mean we would have to include Elvis, The Sex Pistols, Velvet Underground and Chuck Berry.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:51 |
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As many here have mentioned before the inclusion of various bands into various prog genres is very subjective and has a great deal to do with who the current decision makers are . Change those who vote or allow the whole board to vote en masse and you would get different inclusions of bands and perhaps some tossed out.
IMHO Ultravox, Simple Minds, Echo and the Bunnymen, etc are easily as 'proggy' as Japan or Talking Heads.
But once again....it's subjective based on who is doing the voting.
C'est la vie.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:53 |
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Page 'new prog rock' releases http://newprogreleases.blogspot.ca/search: Midge Ure was the second singer for Ultravox, during their years of greatest success. 'Fragile' is Ure’s first album of new, original material in over a decade, and showing more progressive influences than his past work. 'Become' is the liveliest track and the one that sounds the most like Ultravox. The rest of the songs are generally more stately and atmospheric. To the extent that this is pop, it is very symphonic, grandiose, sophisticated pop. Lush synth sounds make up most of the sound palette, sometimes with the Ultravox grand piano sound, while there is occasional electric guitar (or a reasonable facsimile) of a slightly Frippian nature. There is some cinematic instrumental material, and most of this album is as deserving of being called contemporary prog as a whole lot of other stuff. (kinesiscd.com).
At least, one voice for but I did stress over and over that Fragile (Familiar title?) is different. Would it change anything ? NO. Personally, I love rebellion and am perfectly content NOT towing the line. Balls or no balls.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 11:54 |
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Here comes the cavalry ! My arguments entirely.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:02 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:02 |
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I would like to know exactly how it's decided; is there a protocol using a certain point system or connections to musicians or what..? Is it simply up to the 'whim' of those making the call..? And how many are actually involved in the decision process? 3 or more or just one or two..?
 ps: not picking on any of the decision makers btw; just curious on the actual process and how many get to vote. Edited by dr wu23 - September 01 2014 at 12:04 |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:09 |
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Well being part of the Crossover team, the way it works is that a candidate inclusion possibility is announced, with various accessibility to sights and sounds (generally a Bandcamp , FB or web-site ), as well as previous posts and the team members vote (Prog Freak site) . The artist can be added, rejected, moved, discussed or moved to prog-related . Voting by majority . Its a team thing , so it can passed around like a hot potato .....PA Teams are generally 3 or more members.
Edited by tszirmay - September 01 2014 at 12:10 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:19 |
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3 members is not very many when the site has far more active members.
Why hasn't it been opened up to a vote by all current members who wish to vote, or at least those who have been members for say 6 months or a year..?
It seems a bit lopsided to just allow a handful to make the decisions .
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:26 |
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Yes but at least they have balls !
 Atavachron's stellar and world class comment earlier.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:31 |
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Again why are only a handful allowed to make band inclusions and rejections when so many post here?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:36 |
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Some commentators have their own bodyguards and apologists . David was referring to Dean's balls . I presume they have met .
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:41 |
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It has been stated many times, including during the recent avatar fiasco , that PA is not a democracy. Never was and never will be. Its the owner's call how he wants to run his site and who is in charge of various rebukes and political leanings. Until his recent retirement, Dean was one of the main admins, ask him. He generally makes sense in his opinions, only occasionally fumbling the football, which he has inadvertently done 3 times in this post.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:41 |
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I know we have gone off topic but it would be nice if the members of PA had some say in the band choices.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:49 |
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Not really off topic. I posted a request for discussion on Ultravox and it was met with a wave a determined rebuttal. That is all. I believe that the reaction is fast and harsh. Even Dean admitted loving John Foxx (so why is he not included?) and early Ultravox with him singing was definitely progressive-leaning at the very least. Yeah, Ure-era Ultravox was perhaps more linear and ear-friendly (though stuffed with dreamier tracks) , which explains the reaction (and correctly so , may I add) but Fragile is special and definitely prog. The book-ends deserve attention not the fat underbelly. I agree with you that all members should have at least an opinion on adds.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:50 |
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Whole board voting en masse will never work, no one is interested in voting on thousands of obscure or lesser known artists, (this is without looking at the plethora of 'Bandcamp; suggestions) so if the bulk of the work-load falls on a select few representative volunteer collaborators, and the whole board is happy for them to do that, then the same consideration must be given to all evaluations, whether they are high-profile artists or not. There is also the question of what voting criteria you adopt and how you determine when "the whole board" has voted.
Those who decide (ie the genre team members) changes on an irregular basis, the breadth of inclusions generally doesn't change significantly as a result. The system, however flawed it may appear to be, actually works rather well. It is a team effort on a majority vote so no single team member can force through a band that the rest of the team disagree with. With 'controversial' suggestions (which all of the bands mentioned in this thread inevitably would be), this has to be a unanimous vote. Any change in the inclusions that you can see occurring over time (or that Chris predicts could happen in the next 10-15 years) is more a reflection of the change in PA as a whole than any change in the genre teams, however, since the majority of 'controversial' additions occurred in the dim and distant past if anything the PA has become more conservative. However, I am pleasantly surprised at how consistent the teams are as a whole, it's easy to pick one or two decisions that raise eyebrows but those are insignificant in relation to the number of evaluations each team has to work through, and since those have been on a majority or unanimous vote it is difficult to argue against them or accuse anyone of favouritism or having an agenda. My past disagreements with some of the teams has never been over which artists they include, but with how they reached the decision - for me the wrong band for the wrong reason is worse than the right band for the wrong reason is worse than the wrong band for the right reason - it should always be the right band for the right reason. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 12:54 |
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David lives in California, USA, I reside in Hampshire, UK. We have never met though I would not pass-up the opportunity should it ever arise. He is not my wing-man, nor I his, and we have never been on the same genre team (he was Heavy Prog, I was Crossover, PR & PP) and we have had some disagreements in the past but never serious ones.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 13:01 |
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His bad choice of words then.! Certainly not mine.Mind you , you did post once something about humor and grains of salt. Dean, you obviously don't need any wing men, having your strong opinions based on some solid arguments but a few have popped up on occasion. One cannot help noticing and making fun of it. PA is not democracy but we are allowed to disagree, I mean that kind of censorship would spell the demise of any site, save the NSDAP glee club.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 13:21 |
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It is not about adding bands that people like and it is certainly not about adding bands that I like. There are a number of bands that I like that have no place here and a few of my own suggestions have been shot-down (in flames I may add). The same is true for all members of genre teams - we don't add bands just because we like them. John Foxx is not included because he has never been formally suggested or evaluated; I have never suggested him for evaluation (and I never will), but I will sing his praises at every opportunity (and frequently have done - seriously, if you've never heard Tiny Colour Movies or Cathedral Oceans or anything he's done with The Maths then go to YouTube and give then a listen). None of this is a knee-jerk reaction to a suggestion that we've never heard before - Ultravox were suggested several times in the past with Eric (EDub) being their most vocal supporter. I have followed Ultravox since I first saw them on live back in 1977 and know their discography pretty well, at no time did I ever think they were a Prog band. The decision to reject them for Crossover back in 2007 was a carefully considered decision made by the entire team, (which also included Chris), by the site-rules their 2012 release entitles them to be re-evaluated, but ONLY if that album is deemed to be relevant (and since you have not mentioned it at all my assumption is that it isn't). Fragile is not an Ultravox album, if you want Midge Ure to be evaluated then he has to be suggested separately as a solo artist.
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Ultravox and beyond
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Chris S wrote: