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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ultravox and beyond
    Posted: August 31 2014 at 16:00

As a long-time member of PA and a prog career that spans the entire style historically, I most humbly request the blessing from you, all of you, to express an issue I have had since day one of PA.  The target of my disappointment and now, the resolve to remedy the situation is the omission of a style of New Wave artists who fully deserve at the very least consideration such as Depeche Mode, Magazine, Bauhaus and Peter Murphy, New Muzik, Simple Minds as well as my ultimate ‘cause celebre’, Ultravox!

This band was, is and continues to be influential with a slew of albums as well as John Foxx solo discography that is still light years forward, memorable futurist songs like “Metal Beat”, “Dislocation”, “Maximum Acceleration”, “Mr. X”  and “Vienna” were warp speed away from the current trendy sounds, prog or otherwise. Truly great music with serious progressive, gothic and punk leanings galore.  John Foxx is an outright genius and his replacement Midge Ure is no slouch, finally releasing a 2014 album that just might swing the balance in favor of possible inclusion. It would be an honorable and entirely correct interpretation of what is progressive, the grandiose melodies alone bathe in dense classicism. Lots of class and mood, is found on “Fragile”, the title chosen to stamp “prog” on the thingy, so let’s give it a Yes album designation! Wink wink, nod nod.  

My bone to pick is that if we included Journey, Talking Heads, Japan, 10cc, Swans and as poppy a Yes album as the despicable “Open your Eyes”, then why not consider Ultravox, John Foxx and Midge Ure? Fine, it’s synth-pop /electronica but on “Fragile” especially, the sweeping melodies are just beyond belief, probably 2014’s best album and a definite classic for eternity.

I am still waiting for my copy but I did listen to all the tunes and it’s a spotless set of thunderous songs, full of depth, glimmering technique and crisp production.   

Give it all a listen, stay away from all the pop hits and address the true core of their respective careers and give an opinion. Prog-related at the very least, IMHO. 
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 16:20
It's not my kind of music, but various others here aren't either, so I don't see why not.

I don't think anyopne can deny that the music was progressive in the sense that it hadn't been done before, but then again neither had Disco, for instance.

My main gripe would be that it was all very slick and streamlined, and I somehow can't help perceiving it as Yuppie music and catering for the masses, whereas other styles seemed to do their personal thing without special regard for acceptance.

The only album in this style I own is Ultravox's Vienna, and I find it pleasant listening but not much more.

Do you have any particular recommendations that would show me that it's not all played in 4/4? I'd be quite interested.
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 16:36
Not sure I'd call them a prog band, prog-related maybe.

Midge Ure's new album was reviewed in the last issue of Prog magazine.
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 17:23
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

It's not my kind of music, but various others here aren't either, so I don't see why not.

I don't think anyopne can deny that the music was progressive in the sense that it hadn't been done before, but then again neither had Disco, for instance.

My main gripe would be that it was all very slick and streamlined, and I somehow can't help perceiving it as Yuppie music and catering for the masses, whereas other styles seemed to do their personal thing without special regard for acceptance.

The only album in this style I own is Ultravox's Vienna, and I find it pleasant listening but not much more.

Do you have any particular recommendations that would show me that it's not all played in 4/4? I'd be quite interested.



Systems of Romance was Ultravox's second album, with John Foxx on vocals , I would definitely consider some of the songs I mentioned in my post but the entire album has a special 'cold' feel . Remember , this was 1978, totally ahead of its time ! Otherwise John Foxx had some thrilling electronic music on Metamatic (1980) and the Garden (1981). Need I mention those were prog's bleak years! Confused 

I get it , there were a lot of commercial tunes during the Midge Ure -era  like "Dancing With Tears in my Eyes" and "Passing Strangers" but also stellar pieces like "The Thin Wall", "Rage in Eden" "The Voice" , "Dream On"  and "All Fall Down" but perhaps the best is the current "Fragile" , all available on youtube. 

Seeing Ultravox live as well as Midge Ure , you would undoubtedly appreciate the less-streamlined approach. 


Edited by tszirmay - August 31 2014 at 17:29
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 20:13
Big fan of John Foxx and Ultravox! (John Foxx era), less of a fan of Ultravox with Midge Ure and even less for Midge Ure solo [Wastelands was the best thing he ever recorded but Modern Man did the original much better], my initial enthusiasm for anything involving Midge Ure quickly faded, it just lacked the substance and depth required for repeated listening. He has a great voice, but that's not enough.

The major hurdle for including Ultravox! and all the other new-wave artists mentioned in the OP is that they are not Progressive Rock. While some of it has obvious Art Rock, Electronica and Krautrock influence there is the overriding fact that it is the antithesis of Prog in every (musical) respect: the tunes and melodies are not complex and feature no progression or development within a song; song structures and arrangements are box-standard; the instrumental layering is rarely anything more than two-dimensional with no polyphony or counter-point; the rhythms are simple with zero polymeter or polyrhythm; the time sigs are generally common time with no complex or irrational meters; and there are no instrumental excesses or intricate solos. Of course not all Prog Rock contains every element I've listed there, but some of it is present in all Prog since that is what defines it as Prog and remove all of them and what remains is just Pop. Intelligent Pop, but Pop never-the-less.

It would be wrong to include any of these bands on the grounds that prominent Prog bands also made Pop albums.

[edit]
We evaluated Ultravox! (John Foxx era) and Ultravox (Midge Ure era) for Crossover and resolutely resoundingly rejected them, personally I think Prog Related is a "no" too. 
[/edit]

John Foxx's solo career since leaving Ultravox is to my tastes far more interesting (yes he is a genius and in my mind surpasses Brian Eno for creativity and musicianship) but even when he produced superb Ambient albums they are not Electronic Progressive ambient albums - somewhat ironically they are not heavily synthesised electronic (for example Translucence with Harold Budd is predominantly an acoustic album). The music he has created since 1997 is nothing like the New Wave we are discussing here. 


Edited by Dean - September 01 2014 at 02:44
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 20:46
Fine. Prog-related NO 
Ok. 
Thank you. 


Edited by tszirmay - August 31 2014 at 20:48
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Points: 2206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 22:19
I could talk myself into it if I plucked those airy synth, electric violin moments from those early Island albums - the only ones I've ever heard from the band....remember those crazy drums (had never heard electric drums until Ha! Ha! Ha!)....Cro-magnon Simple Minds, Japan, even the later beauty that Talk Talk created.  But, just spin Fear in the Western World for PA members, then let them decide.
I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2014 at 23:40
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Fine. Prog-related NO 
Ok. 
Thank you. 

Dear Dean, your highly enlightening (and very standard) comment about progressive rock's parameters are not at all agreeing with my own definition. I consider progressive in simpler terms , something beyond the three minute Ramones-like guitar, bass and drum, verse chorus entity. Progressive rock, pour moi, evolved (I stress the word EVOLVE) from the infusion of keyboard elements namely electrified ivories and particularly the synthesizer , which made rock progress into more complex arrangements.  Adding various "modern" sounds helped charting a new course for basic rock and roll. You find it boxed and musically linear ? Fine. 
On Fragile, Ure's latest, the instrumentation is very detailed, technical and definitely with symphonic tendencies.
Doesn't really matter to me whether Ultravox gets approved by the system or not. I just find quick-wristed /slice and dice/ lack of open-mindedness  (aka pigeon-holing ) the very antithesis of prog and its Achilles heel , frankly.   

I also have a problem with the words 'resolutely rejecting' , sounds too heavy handed for a obviously intellectually advanced commentator , ex-administrator and current layabout Wink. 


Edited by tszirmay - September 01 2014 at 00:02
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 00:28
I agree 100% with the Team who voted *NO* for Ultravox.

edit: this thread would be moved by the forum moderator to General Music Discussions, where this thread belongs.








Edited by Svetonio - September 01 2014 at 00:35
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 00:41
Dean sums it up perfectly.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:16
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Dean sums it up perfectly.

Mmm, I say, old bean, somewhat too salty , no ? 
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:19
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

I agree 100% with the Team who voted *NO* for Ultravox.

edit: this thread would be moved by the forum moderator to General Music Discussions, where this thread belongs.







Actually, druze, the thread does not belong at all on PA. Wink
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:48
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

I agree 100% with the Team who voted *NO* for Ultravox.

edit: this thread would be moved by the forum moderator to General Music Discussions, where this thread belongs.







Actually, druze, the thread does not belong at all on PA. Wink
Of course this thread belongs to PA, why not, but in GENERAL MUSIC DISCUSSIONS sub-forum and you know it, comrade..











Edited by Svetonio - September 01 2014 at 01:51
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:29
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

I agree 100% with the Team who voted *NO* for Ultravox.

edit: this thread would be moved by the forum moderator to General Music Discussions, where this thread belongs.







Actually, druze, the thread does not belong at all on PA. Wink
Of course this thread belongs to PA, why not, but in GENERAL MUSIC DISCUSSIONS sub-forum and you know it, comrade..










I know nothing , in fact nothing at all! But I was hoping for some possible  appeal decision to add Ultravox in prog-related which is why i posted here but it was 'resolutely rejected' by the PA politburo. Maybe a conversation ..... but its NO , and NO means NO. Jebi me, as they say!LOL


Edited by tszirmay - September 01 2014 at 02:31
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:37
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

 

I also have a problem with the words 'resolutely rejecting' , sounds too heavy handed for a obviously intellectually advanced commentator , ex-administrator and current layabout Wink. 
Sorry - resolute was the wrong word, I meant resoundingly (it was 2 a.m.)


Edited by Dean - September 01 2014 at 02:40
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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:45
Attaque, parade, riposte , contre-attaque, parade....Touche!  

Rejection is to the rejectee, both resounding and resolute. 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:57
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Attaque, parade, riposte , contre-attaque, parade....Touche!  

Rejection is to the rejectee, both resounding and resolute. 
Well, no. It was the wrong word used incorrectly. Resolute implies we were determined to reject them come what may and nothing could be further from the truth. A search of the forum will show that I have frequently 'championed' John Foxx and Ultravox! and tried to make a case for their inclusion but I couldn't even convince myself of their eligibility.
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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Points: 6673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:00
Fair enough.   I guess. That , ladies and gentlemen, was one opinion. Any dissenting voices ? BTW, how can one champion someone who is ineligible?  
Not good planning, wot?Big smile


Edited by tszirmay - September 01 2014 at 03:02
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Points: 65298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:33
^ no but it had balls -
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:40
Give PA another 10 years and maybe they will be revisited then. What's a decade anyway? Ultravox - borderline, f&%k yeah why not, but i would include bands like The Sound, The Cure before Ultravox, subjectively speakingSmile
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