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SteveG 
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 Posted: August 07 2014 at 16:49 |
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^My point Gerard is that we don't need to actually understand lyrics, just hearing a human voice adds a connection to the music. Then why not just listen to instrumental prog music only. It is out there, after all.
Edited by SteveG - August 07 2014 at 16:51
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genbanks
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 17:06 |
 SteveG wrote:
The Closing Bell: 29 For, 5 Against, 3 Not Determined and 7 Without Comment. After rechecking and rethinking some of the comments, I think the totals are pretty close. The reason I posted this thread, apart from the question about religion in Progressive Music, was to again call attention to the question How important are lyrics to you in Prog Music? It seems that they are important in regard to specific topics, so again I propose to argue that they are important to us and, if anything, perhaps even on some base psychological level. (No pyscho babel here, just using the term as an example). There is a reason that the majority of the music that we enjoy listening to is not purely instrumental. Perhaps we need a human connection to it, if even on some subconscious level, as my old pal Doctor Freud use to say. And no, I'm not as old as him. |
As I said in another thread, I take lyrics as an integral part of the progressive rock, but still the main thing is the music, with the voice as a part of this music beyond what they are telling. In some cases the lyrics are as important as the music. Talking about Genesis for example, Supper's Ready and One for the vine are in this case. But not the case of Firth of fifth for example, in which the lyrics loses into the music. When the piece tells a story, the lyrics becomes very important for me. So the lyrics are important but not the most important. When the music is great, lyrics could be not good and there is not much problem. But great lyrics with mediocre music, just I'm not interested in this. The ideal thing it is obviously great music + great lyrics. In any case all of this is a bit subjective.
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SteveG
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 17:43 |
genbanks wrote:
SteveG wrote:
The Closing Bell: 29 For, 5 Against, 3 Not Determined and 7 Without Comment. After rechecking and rethinking some of the comments, I think the totals are pretty close. The reason I posted this thread, apart from the question about religion in Progressive Music, was to again call attention to the question How important are lyrics to you in Prog Music? It seems that they are important in regard to specific topics, so again I propose to argue that they are important to us and, if anything, perhaps even on some base psychological level. (No pyscho babel here, just using the term as an example). There is a reason that the majority of the music that we enjoy listening to is not purely instrumental. Perhaps we need a human connection to it, if even on some subconscious level, as my old pal Doctor Freud use to say. And no, I'm not as old as him. |
As I said in another thread, I take lyrics as an integral part of the progressive rock, but still the main thing is the music, with the voice as a part of this music beyond what they are telling. In some cases the lyrics are as important as the music. Talking about Genesis for example, Supper's Ready and One for the vine are in this case. But not the case of Firth of fifth for example, in which the lyrics loses into the music. When the piece tells a story, the lyrics becomes very important for me. So the lyrics are important but not the most important. When the music is great, lyrics could be not good and there is not much problem. But great lyrics with mediocre music, just I'm not interested in this. The ideal thing it is obviously great music + great lyrics. In any case all of this is a bit subjective. |
As a great music producer one said 'You're on your way to Hitsville, son'. I know you it get GB. After all, even Hendrix sang his songs. There's only so much live Star Spangled Banner that you can listen to.
Edited by SteveG - August 07 2014 at 17:44
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genbanks
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 19:15 |
SteveG wrote:
genbanks wrote:
SteveG wrote:
The Closing Bell: 29 For, 5 Against, 3 Not Determined and 7 Without Comment. After rechecking and rethinking some of the comments, I think the totals are pretty close. The reason I posted this thread, apart from the question about religion in Progressive Music, was to again call attention to the question How important are lyrics to you in Prog Music? It seems that they are important in regard to specific topics, so again I propose to argue that they are important to us and, if anything, perhaps even on some base psychological level. (No pyscho babel here, just using the term as an example). There is a reason that the majority of the music that we enjoy listening to is not purely instrumental. Perhaps we need a human connection to it, if even on some subconscious level, as my old pal Doctor Freud use to say. And no, I'm not as old as him. |
As I said in another thread, I take lyrics as an integral part of the progressive rock, but still the main thing is the music, with the voice as a part of this music beyond what they are telling. In some cases the lyrics are as important as the music. Talking about Genesis for example, Supper's Ready and One for the vine are in this case. But not the case of Firth of fifth for example, in which the lyrics loses into the music. When the piece tells a story, the lyrics becomes very important for me. So the lyrics are important but not the most important. When the music is great, lyrics could be not good and there is not much problem. But great lyrics with mediocre music, just I'm not interested in this. The ideal thing it is obviously great music + great lyrics. In any case all of this is a bit subjective. |
As a great music producer one said 'You're on your way to Hitsville, son'. I know you it get GB. After all, even Hendrix sang his songs. There's only so much live Star Spangled Banner that you can listen to.
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Well, sorry but I can't understand at all what are you trying to say...
Edited by genbanks - August 07 2014 at 19:15
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Dean
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 19:40 |
SteveG wrote:
The Closing Bell: 29 For, 5 Against, 3 Not Determined and 7 Without Comment. After rechecking and rethinking some of the comments, I think the totals are pretty close. The reason I posted this thread, apart from the question about religion in Progressive Music, was to again call attention to the question How important are lyrics to you in Prog Music? It seems that they are important in regard to specific topics, so again I propose to argue that they are important to us and, if anything, perhaps even on some base psychological level. (No pyscho babel here, just using the term as an example). There is a reason that the majority of the music that we enjoy listening to is not purely instrumental. Perhaps we need a human connection to it, if even on some subconscious level, as my old pal Doctor Freud use to say. And no, I'm not as old as him. |
Ah... no. You asked whether there was a place for religion in Prog - you didn't ask us whether religious lyrics were important. Two different things and frankly, no real correlation between them. You cannot infer from the replies that the lyrics are important or that anyone even listen to them unless they draw attention to themselves in some way. Most replies here suggest that they are tolerated as long as they aren't too preachy - which kinda suggests, like many people have been trying to say in the other thread, they are not important at all - however if they are intrusive (for example badly written or badly sung) then they are often disliked.
Edited by Dean - August 07 2014 at 19:47
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What?
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Dean
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 20:46 |
SteveG wrote:
^My point Gerard is that we don't need to actually understand lyrics, just hearing a human voice adds a connection to the music. |
Nah.
That doesn't make the lyrics important. If you don't understand the words then they cannot be important: if they are sung in real language you do not speak or understand; or in a way that is completely incomprehensible (Black Metal); or in an invented language like Kobaļan (Magma), Hopelandic (Sigur Ros), Loxian (Enya); or merely vocalised in a nonsensical stream of syllables (Dead Can Dance, Adiemus, Cocteau Twins)
then the listener cannot hope to understand them. The lyric is then unimportant, it is not the words but how they are sung, (and often the singer not the song). The voice as an instrument is not the same thing as lyrics as poetry.
To further emphasis the "it's not the words but how they're sung" idea - last year in a thread far, far away, I posted this:
Dean, in a thread on New Age mysticism in music wrote:
... the mysticism (!) is the experience, not the content. I think this is also true of religious music - the plainsong, the chant, the madrigal, the hymn - it is the experience of hearing (and/or singing) that provides the spiritual up-lift, not the words being sung. DCD have been mentioned, I'll add another Dark Wave band to the list: Miranda Sex Garden whose album of a capella madrigals, Madra, ultimately led Katherine Blake to form The Medieval Bębes. ....
For me, a new age mystisical (!) lyric is an affirmation of what someone already believes or knows to be true, just as a hymn sung in church is an affirmation of belief. I suspect that the number of people who ever got converted to a religion on hearing the words of a hymn are very, very, very few and the same is true for christian messages in Prog songs (Neal Morse, Saviour Machine, Torman Maxt or Epignosis) or new age mysticism (!) in Prog songs (Yes and ?). If a lyric moves you (spiritually) it is because it agrees/confirms/affirms with what you already believed. |
SteveG wrote:
Then why not just listen to instrumental prog music only. It is out there, after all. |
plus...
SteveG wrote:
As a great music producer one said 'You're on your way to Hitsville, son'. I know you it get GB. After all,even Hendrix sang his songs. There's only so much live Star Spangled Banner that you can listen to. |
The whole field of Classical Music thrives on predominately instrumental music, coral, opera and cantata form a small part of the orchestral repertoire by comparison; jazz also has a strong instrumental tradition; and there are several popular Prog bands who either don't have a vocalist or who make mainly instrumental albums (Camel, Soft Machine, Tangerine Dream, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Anglagard, Miles Davis, Jeff Beck, The Enid, etc.), and bands where the vocals are secondary (ELP, Focus, Mike Oldfield, and probably a few others that I can't recall at 2a.m.). Taking all that into consideration I think you'd be hard pushed to say that instrumental music lacks a [human] connection so the idea that incomprehensible vocals adds a connection sounds somewhat tenuous to me.
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What?
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presdoug
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Joined: January 24 2010
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Posted: August 07 2014 at 21:20 |
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As religion does not play a role in my personal life, it has no place in my Prog listening. That is just me, though. To each his own, I guess.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 01:38 |
SteveG wrote:
^My point Gerard is that we don't need to actually understand lyrics, just hearing a human voice adds a connection to the music. Then why not just listen to instrumental prog music only. It is out there, after all. |
Precisely, it is out there, and quite a lot of it, and people listen to it. If it was as you say, instrumental music would be marginal. Whether music is mostly instrumental or mostly sung is a matter of trends, as Dean said the most popular music has been instrumental for a large part of history, classical, modernist, bluegrass, dixie, big-band, much of jazz, quite some psychedelic, electronic, new age... Prog descends mainly from Pop-Rock, which is a mostly sung type of music, and so it embraced also vocals as a main instrument, but I don't think you can generalise saying that instrumental Prog lacks some connection with the listener.
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Epignosis
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 08:26 |
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^My point Gerard is that we don't need to
actually understand lyrics, just hearing a human voice adds a connection
to the music. |
Nah.
That doesn't make the lyrics important. If you don't understand the words then they cannot be important: if they are sung in real language you do not speak or understand; or in a way that is completely incomprehensible (Black Metal); or in an invented language like Kobaļan (Magma), Hopelandic (Sigur Ros), Loxian (Enya); or merely vocalised in a nonsensical stream of syllables (Dead Can Dance, Adiemus, Cocteau Twins)
then the listener cannot hope to understand them. The lyric is then unimportant, it is not
the words but how they are sung, (and often the singer not the song).
The voice as an instrument is not the same thing as lyrics as poetry.
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I
disagree. A lack of understanding does not diminish something's
importance. Perhaps the lyrics will be unimportant to someone, but to say they "cannot be important" is an overstatement.
Does
"The Great Gig in the Sky?" have meaning and is the female's voice in
that piece important? What about the section of "Awaken" that is
relevant to our discussion? Yes could have had Howe record the vocal
melody with his guitar instead, but they chose the human voice, which is
capable of producing morphemes. I have no idea what those lyrics mean,
but if, instead of "Awaken gentle mass touch," Anderson had sung,
"Awaken w**ker mass touch," it would change my appreciation of the
piece, even though I still don't have any clue what he's singing about.
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The T
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 08:54 |
This brings to mind a debate I've had like a million times especially with people back in my country of origin, where people refer to "rock en espańol" (rock in Spanish) as a different thing from rock (rock "en ingles" - in English). Outside of rock, people talk of "music in Spanish" vs "music in English". I've always found trying to argue that such denominations make no sense whatsoever. Music, moving of air vibrating at specific frequencies, has no language at all (music in itself is a form of language).
I also agree that "Christian music" does not exist. What exists is music with Christian lyrics.
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 09:03 |
Epignosis wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^My point Gerard is that we don't need to
actually understand lyrics, just hearing a human voice adds a connection
to the music. |
Nah.
That doesn't make the lyrics important. If you don't understand the words then they cannot be important: if they are sung in real language you do not speak or understand; or in a way that is completely incomprehensible (Black Metal); or in an invented language like Kobaļan (Magma), Hopelandic (Sigur Ros), Loxian (Enya); or merely vocalised in a nonsensical stream of syllables (Dead Can Dance, Adiemus, Cocteau Twins)
then the listener cannot hope to understand them. The lyric is then unimportant, it is not
the words but how they are sung, (and often the singer not the song).
The voice as an instrument is not the same thing as lyrics as poetry.
|
I
disagree. A lack of understanding does not diminish something's
importance. Perhaps the lyrics will be unimportant to someone, but to say they "cannot be important" is an overstatement.
Does
"The Great Gig in the Sky?" have meaning and is the female's voice in
that piece important? What about the section of "Awaken" that is
relevant to our discussion? Yes could have had Howe record the vocal
melody with his guitar instead, but they chose the human voice, which is
capable of producing morphemes. I have no idea what those lyrics mean,
but if, instead of "Awaken gentle mass touch," Anderson had sung,
"Awaken w**ker mass touch," it would change my appreciation of the
piece, even though I still don't have any clue what he's singing about.
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Sorry, I thought the phrase "to the listener" was implicit. Never mind.
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What?
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 09:13 |
Epignosis wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^My point Gerard is that we don't need to
actually understand lyrics, just hearing a human voice adds a connection
to the music. |
Nah.
That doesn't make the lyrics important. If you don't understand the words then they cannot be important: if they are sung in real language you do not speak or understand; or in a way that is completely incomprehensible (Black Metal); or in an invented language like Kobaļan (Magma), Hopelandic (Sigur Ros), Loxian (Enya); or merely vocalised in a nonsensical stream of syllables (Dead Can Dance, Adiemus, Cocteau Twins)
then the listener cannot hope to understand them. The lyric is then unimportant, it is not
the words but how they are sung, (and often the singer not the song).
The voice as an instrument is not the same thing as lyrics as poetry.
|
I
disagree. A lack of understanding does not diminish something's
importance. Perhaps the lyrics will be unimportant to someone, but to say they "cannot be important" is an overstatement.
Does
"The Great Gig in the Sky?" have meaning and is the female's voice in
that piece important? What about the section of "Awaken" that is
relevant to our discussion? Yes could have had Howe record the vocal
melody with his guitar instead, but they chose the human voice, which is
capable of producing morphemes. I have no idea what those lyrics mean,
but if, instead of "Awaken gentle mass touch," Anderson had sung,
"Awaken w**ker mass touch," it would change my appreciation of the
piece, even though I still don't have any clue what he's singing about.
|
I have an image of what it means but is my perception
correct? I'm not absolutely sure
"Awaken gentle mass touch" appears to be a calling
to the realization of who we truly are.
The first time I heard the end piece of Awaken it literally
sent chills up my spine. I dont think
that the music alone, without the lyrics, would have done this.
Like the time I ran away
Turned around and you were standing close to me
Like the time I ran away
Turned around and you were standing close to me
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Epignosis
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 09:17 |
I thought it was rather explicit, really.
Dean wrote:
...then the listener cannot hope to understand them. The lyric is then unimportant ... |
I don't agree that a listener being unable to understand the lyrics renders the lyrics unimportant. No need to be dismissive.
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The Doctor
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 09:38 |
The T wrote:
This brings to mind a debate I've had like a million times especially with people back in my country of origin, where people refer to "rock en espańol" (rock in Spanish) as a different thing from rock (rock "en ingles" - in English). Outside of rock, people talk of "music in Spanish" vs "music in English". I've always found trying to argue that such denominations make no sense whatsoever. Music, moving of air vibrating at specific frequencies, has no language at all (music in itself is a form of language).I also agree that "Christian music" does not exist. What exists is music with Christian lyrics. |
Yet we have right here on PA, RPI which is basically Italian Symphonic Prog. While there are some stylistic differences between it and regular Symph Prog, and the lyrics are not always sung in Italian, the usual Italian language lyrics are the primary reason there is a separate section for RPI, it seems.
@Cosmic Vibration - "Like the time I ran away, turned around and you were standing close to me." - sounds like he's being stalked. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1396
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 10:16 |
The Doctor wrote:
The T wrote:
This brings to mind a debate I've had like a million times especially with people back in my country of origin, where people refer to "rock en espańol" (rock in Spanish) as a different thing from rock (rock "en ingles" - in English). Outside of rock, people talk of "music in Spanish" vs "music in English". I've always found trying to argue that such denominations make no sense whatsoever. Music, moving of air vibrating at specific frequencies, has no language at all (music in itself is a form of language).I also agree that "Christian music" does not exist. What exists is music with Christian lyrics. |
Yet we have right here on PA, RPI which is basically Italian Symphonic Prog. While there are some stylistic differences between it and regular Symph Prog, and the lyrics are not always sung in Italian, the usual Italian language lyrics are the primary reason there is a separate section for RPI, it seems.
@Cosmic Vibration - "Like the time I ran away, turned around and you were standing close to me." - sounds like he's being stalked. |
Yes, indeed he is, by the Hound of Heaven. 
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239. The Hound of Heaven
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By Francis Thompson (18591907)
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 11:01 |
A new review of Jesus Christ Superstar in the home page made me think of this thread. JCS is one of those works which, while not being myself a religious person let alone a catholic, I always found great. Whatever you may think of the facts and legends surrounding Jesus there is not doubt that his was a figure relevant to our world like few others, and JCS tells the story from some specific angles which are at the very least interesting and amusing. You do not need to believe to appreciate interesting things in JCS story and lyrics.
In particular it presents Jesus not as any supernatural being, not the son of god, not divine, just a man. There's no resurrection, no miracles (except for the prediction that John will deny him 3 times, and assuming you don't take the song Superstar with Judas Iscariot singing from the afterlife as anything more than a metaphor).
Edited by Gerinski - August 08 2014 at 11:30
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 11:23 |
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^My point Gerard is that we don't need to actually understand lyrics, just hearing a human voice adds a connection to the music. |
Nah.
That doesn't make the lyrics important. If you don't understand the words then they cannot be important: if they are sung in real language you do not speak or understand; or in a way that is completely incomprehensible (Black Metal); or in an invented language like Kobaļan (Magma), Hopelandic (Sigur Ros), Loxian (Enya); or merely vocalised in a nonsensical stream of syllables (Dead Can Dance, Adiemus, Cocteau Twins)
then the listener cannot hope to understand them. The lyric is then unimportant, it is not the words but how they are sung, (and often the singer not the song). The voice as an instrument is not the same thing as lyrics as poetry.
To further emphasis the "it's not the words but how they're sung" idea - last year in a thread far, far away, I posted this:
Dean, in a thread on New Age mysticism in music wrote:
... the mysticism (!) is the experience, not the content. I think this is also true of religious music - the plainsong, the chant, the madrigal, the hymn - it is the experience of hearing (and/or singing) that provides the spiritual up-lift, not the words being sung. DCD have been mentioned, I'll add another Dark Wave band to the list: Miranda Sex Garden whose album of a capella madrigals, Madra, ultimately led Katherine Blake to form The Medieval Bębes. ....
For me, a new age mystisical (!) lyric is an affirmation of what someone already believes or knows to be true, just as a hymn sung in church is an affirmation of belief. I suspect that the number of people who ever got converted to a religion on hearing the words of a hymn are very, very, very few and the same is true for christian messages in Prog songs (Neal Morse, Saviour Machine, Torman Maxt or Epignosis) or new age mysticism (!) in Prog songs (Yes and ?). If a lyric moves you (spiritually) it is because it agrees/confirms/affirms with what you already believed. |
SteveG wrote:
Then why not just listen to instrumental prog music only. It is out there, after all. |
plus...
SteveG wrote:
As a great music producer one said 'You're on your way to Hitsville, son'. I know you it get GB. After all,even Hendrix sang his songs. There's only so much live Star Spangled Banner that you can listen to. |
The whole field of Classical Music thrives on predominately instrumental music, coral, opera and cantata form a small part of the orchestral repertoire by comparison; jazz also has a strong instrumental tradition; and there are several popular Prog bands who either don't have a vocalist or who make mainly instrumental albums (Camel, Soft Machine, Tangerine Dream, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Anglagard, Miles Davis, Jeff Beck, The Enid, etc.), and bands where the vocals are secondary (ELP, Focus, Mike Oldfield, and probably a few others that I can't recall at 2a.m.). Taking all that into consideration I think you'd be hard pushed to say that instrumental music lacks a [human] connection so the idea that incomprehensible vocals adds a connection sounds somewhat tenuous to me.
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Fair enough Dean. It was a quick response without expanding my original argument to state clearly that even if we cannot understand some lyrics at times, we give it a pass. Some will assert that, as do I, that vocals in that context are another type of instrument in the sound mix. I also contend that it helps to maintain a human connection with music along with the usually understandable lyrics that we hear in most prog music. And like purely instrumental music in prog, we can only take so much of it. But it was my oversight, so I accept and understand your criticism.
Edited by SteveG - August 08 2014 at 11:31
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SteveG
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Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20609
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 11:51 |
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And what about the OPs original question: Does religion have a place in Prog music? Well, it certainly does according to a majority of the responses in the poll. I wanted to give this thread a short break, switch gears with another theme (the importance of lyrics question) and start to instill a sense of closure to it as religion (a bit to my surprise) is still a topic that can still be a very personally important and sensitive subject to some members. As Dean stated in one of his posts, you cannot generalize in this type of poll, but I think members would agree that PA contains a majority of extremely tolerant people. Something that all religions preach but a trait that few of its members really possess.
Edited by SteveG - August 08 2014 at 16:25
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 12:00 |
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If you like religion in your prog lyrics, I'm cool with that. I think Kansas has done some interesting stuff. Personally, I much prefer good instrumentals.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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CosmicVibration
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Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
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Posted: August 08 2014 at 13:12 |
A trifecta:
1-
Good instrumentation
2-
Good voices
3-
Good lyrics
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Does religion have a place in Prog music?
