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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 16:28
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Wellll. Christian music exists and a whole lot of people are going to take a whole lot of convincing before they believe otherwise.


A whole of lot of people taking a whole of of convincing before they believe otherwise...

...that seems oddly familiar. 

Possibly, but I think I phrased it it better. Tongue

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Denying its existence is like saying that there's no such thing as christian books or christian art.  Christian music has existed for hundreds of years - whether that is a hymn or a plainsong or a gregorian chant or a mass or a carol or gospel music or christian rock (or rap or metal or hip hop or folk or polka). It is not a genre I will grant you that, but that does not mean it cannot exist, it does not have to be a style of music to exist. Just as children's music is a category and not a style or genre, and love songs are songs that are genre non-specific songs and have "love" as their theme, christian music is a category of music that has a christian theme. That theme can be praise, worship, prayer or testimony; it can preach and/or proselytise; it can be moralistic; it can be a narrative; it can contain a message and it can sermonise but in all those things it is centred around christianity. 


There are Christian lyrics and Christian intentions and Christian receptions but never Christian music.  Just because a particular set of people used music for a religious purpose does not make it religious music.  Many old Christian hymns are songs written to secular music.  John Wesley's "Love Divine, All Loves Excelling" is a famous example, borrowed from Dryden's and Purcell'sKing Arthur (Venus is the original singer).  So if you played the melody of "Fairest Isle" to a Methodist, the hearer would may well have a religious interpretation.  If you played it to a Dryden scholar, the hearer may well have a secular interpretation.
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The term christian rock was not invented by secular musicologists so we atheists can avoid it, (thou' at times it is nice to be forewarned), it was a term coined by christians and christian musicians back in the mid-1960s (also known as Jesus music and later as contemporary christian music) ~ 'christian' may not be a useful adjective for describing the music, 'christian music' a damn useful noun-phrase for those who are looking for it ~ which is I guess why fans of christian music even have their own version of the PA (www.christianmusicarchive.com).

Those who are looking for it are not looking for Christian music- they're looking for Christian lyrics.  "Christian music" is a misnomer, which is what I've been saying.  

I do understand the point you are trying to make Rob but I think you are trying to herd cats, juggle soot or some other such pointless activity here with this semantic literalism. However incorrectly you think it applied, the term exists and people use it, moreover when it is used everyone [else] knows what it means ... music that lyrically has a christian theme.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...and Preachy? It's not a silly adjective it's a (mainly) derogatory one, but I've never heard any of Morse's lyrics since Snow to say whether that is correctly used in relation to his solo material. Religious lyrics can 'have a tendency to give moral advice in a tedious or self-righteous way', (ie 'preachy'), then so can non-religious lyrics. Like every episode of The Cosby Show had to contain a life lesson, to a non-christian overtly christian lyrics do sound preachy or proselytising, sorry but that's just how it is I'm afraid.


I've been on this forum a while, and I've never heard the adjective "preachy" used with regard to anybody except Neal Morse.  And if I've forgotten it, I've never seen the term apply to any lyrics other than Christian.  As I mentioned earlier, Jon Anderon records "preachy" things with some frequency, but I've never seen anyone apply that adjective to him.
Until this morning I probably would have agreed with you, I did a quick search of the PA for "preachy" using google expecting to see page after page of nothing but Neal Morse results... I'll grant you he figures quite heavily but only 5 out of 20 results, (11 out of 40) where about Morse. So... other bands whose lyrics were called "preachy" include: Barclay James Harvest, Pain Of Salvation, Queensryche, Torman Maxt, Ramases, Roine Stolt, Legend, Jethro Tull, ELP, Wigwam, The Tangent, Unitopia, Devin Townsend, Akacia, Pink Floyd and Riverside. Basically any one who tries to make some kind of a point in a lyric (religious or otherwise) gets to be called preachy at sometime. I guess Morse wins because he tries harder.

Even Jon Anderson gets a "preachy" reference or two but you'll have to search hard for them - then it is bloody difficult to be accused of being preachy when your lyrics either don't actually make sense or no one understands what you are banging on about.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Not knowing who Kerry Livgren is I assume he is (well?) known as a christian artist and has release other albums with lyrics that have a christian theme. If a christian artist releases an instrumental album it would not surprise me to see it filed under christian music with all his other albums, indeed it would musicology inaccurate but as a cataloguing it would be logical.


He's not well-known at all, really.

An instrumental album going into the "Christian Music" section only shows that such labels are to market albums, not to describe the music.
Exactly (that's what I said). No one ever said it was an auto-descriptive name. Mississippi Mud Pie isn't made from mud.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 16:43
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Denying its existence is like saying that there's no such thing as christian books or christian art.  Christian music has existed for hundreds of years - whether that is a hymn or a plainsong or a gregorian chant or a mass or a carol or gospel music or christian rock (or rap or metal or hip hop or folk or polka). It is not a genre I will grant you that, but that does not mean it cannot exist, it does not have to be a style of music to exist. Just as children's music is a category and not a style or genre, and love songs are songs that are genre non-specific songs and have "love" as their theme, christian music is a category of music that has a christian theme. That theme can be praise, worship, prayer or testimony; it can preach and/or proselytise; it can be moralistic; it can be a narrative; it can contain a message and it can sermonise but in all those things it is centred around christianity. 


There are Christian lyrics and Christian intentions and Christian receptions but never Christian music.  Just because a particular set of people used music for a religious purpose does not make it religious music.  Many old Christian hymns are songs written to secular music.  John Wesley's "Love Divine, All Loves Excelling" is a famous example, borrowed from Dryden's and Purcell'sKing Arthur (Venus is the original singer).  So if you played the melody of "Fairest Isle" to a Methodist, the hearer would may well have a religious interpretation.  If you played it to a Dryden scholar, the hearer may well have a secular interpretation.
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The term christian rock was not invented by secular musicologists so we atheists can avoid it, (thou' at times it is nice to be forewarned), it was a term coined by christians and christian musicians back in the mid-1960s (also known as Jesus music and later as contemporary christian music) ~ 'christian' may not be a useful adjective for describing the music, 'christian music' a damn useful noun-phrase for those who are looking for it ~ which is I guess why fans of christian music even have their own version of the PA (www.christianmusicarchive.com).

Those who are looking for it are not looking for Christian music- they're looking for Christian lyrics.  "Christian music" is a misnomer, which is what I've been saying.  

I do understand the point you are trying to make Rob but I think you are trying to herd cats, juggle soot or some other such pointless activity here with this semantic literalism. However incorrectly you think it applied, the term exists and people use it, moreover when it is used everyone [else] knows what it means ... music that lyrically has a christian theme.


Correcting people's usage of language is my bread and butter.  Not literally my bread and butter, mind you.


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...and Preachy? It's not a silly adjective it's a (mainly) derogatory one, but I've never heard any of Morse's lyrics since Snow to say whether that is correctly used in relation to his solo material. Religious lyrics can 'have a tendency to give moral advice in a tedious or self-righteous way', (ie 'preachy'), then so can non-religious lyrics. Like every episode of The Cosby Show had to contain a life lesson, to a non-christian overtly christian lyrics do sound preachy or proselytising, sorry but that's just how it is I'm afraid.


I've been on this forum a while, and I've never heard the adjective "preachy" used with regard to anybody except Neal Morse.  And if I've forgotten it, I've never seen the term apply to any lyrics other than Christian.  As I mentioned earlier, Jon Anderon records "preachy" things with some frequency, but I've never seen anyone apply that adjective to him.
Until this morning I probably would have agreed with you, I did a quick search of the PA for "preachy" using google expecting to see page after page of nothing but Neal Morse results... I'll grant you he figures quite heavily but only 5 out of 20 results, (11 out of 40) where about Morse. So... other bands whose lyrics were called "preachy" include: Barclay James Harvest, Pain Of Salvation, Queensryche, Torman Maxt, Ramases, Roine Stolt, Legend, Jethro Tull, ELP, Wigwam, The Tangent, Unitopia, Devin Townsend, Akacia, Pink Floyd and Riverside. Basically any one who tries to make some kind of a point in a lyric (religious or otherwise) gets to be called preachy at sometime. I guess Morse wins because he tries harder. Even Jon Anderson gets a "preachy" reference or two but you'll have to search hard for them - then it is bloody difficult to be accused of being preachy when your lyrics either don't actually make sense or no one understands what you are banging on about.


Could you link me to your search results?

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Not knowing who Kerry Livgren is I assume he is (well?) known as a christian artist and has release other albums with lyrics that have a christian theme. If a christian artist releases an instrumental album it would not surprise me to see it filed under christian music with all his other albums, indeed it would musicology inaccurate but as a cataloguing it would be logical.


He's not well-known at all, really.

An instrumental album going into the "Christian Music" section only shows that such labels are to market albums, not to describe the music.
Exactly (that's what I said). No one ever said it was an auto-descriptive name. Mississippi Mud Pie isn't made from mud.


You've never been to Mississippi.


Edited by Epignosis - August 06 2014 at 16:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 16:52
I looked up preachy too...not clicking on each to see the context of how the word "preachy" is used. Here is the context for how it was used with Queensryche

"Interesting work. A little overrated with preachy leftist lyrical content. Basically, this sounds like Iron Maiden discovering Rush's 2112...all the while kicking Ayn Rand in the pants."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 17:20
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Correcting people's usage of language is my bread and butter.  Not literally my bread and butter, mind you.

Or even correcting people's misuse of language maybe. Wink
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Could you link me to your search results?

I'll try (this doesn't always work): Google Search for Preachy (and yes, I did check them for context and only selected those that were called preachy, as opposed to those that were described as having "massive Christian undertones, but as these never feel oppressive, overly preachy, forceful, or 'in-your-face'" which I didn't count Wink)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 17:46
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I looked up preachy too...not clicking on each to see the context of how the word "preachy" is used. Here is the context for how it was used with Queensryche

"Interesting work. A little overrated with preachy leftist lyrical content. Basically, this sounds like Iron Maiden discovering Rush's 2112...all the while kicking Ayn Rand in the pants."

  Wow. Now who sounds 'preachy'? Queeensryche or the reviewer of their music?


Edited by SteveG - August 06 2014 at 17:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 18:01


Current total:  24 for, 6 against and a few that I still can't determine. Wacko





Edited by SteveG - August 07 2014 at 15:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 18:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Correcting people's usage of language is my bread and butter.  Not literally my bread and butter, mind you.

Or even correcting people's misuse of language maybe. Wink


Heh.

Prescriptivist / Descriptivist

I correct their usage too.  Tongue


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


I'll try (this doesn't always work): Google Search for Preachy (and yes, I did check them for context and only selected those that were called preachy, as opposed to those that were described as having "massive Christian undertones, but as these never feel oppressive, overly preachy, forceful, or 'in-your-face'" which I didn't count Wink)


Thanks.  I'll check it out later.


Edited by Epignosis - August 06 2014 at 18:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 19:16
“One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.”



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2014 at 19:16
“One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain.”



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 00:35
Religion is the most primitive and archaic thing in existence. In a genre that is all about innovation and looking forward, I'd say that praising religion in prog is extremely counterintuitive. Since they are basically opposites.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 00:35
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 and I said that as an atheist fundamentalist.


(...)

Svetonio......you really are a bloody fool.


Maybe but you have to be agreed that by all the fools on the Earththe worst fools are religious fools.




... just as a decor ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 01:29
Of course. There will be musicians who include some form of religious or spiritual theme in their lyrics and it doesn't matter what viewpoint it is. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 02:00
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 and I said that as an atheist fundamentalist.


(...)

Svetonio......you really are a bloody fool.


Maybe but you have to be agreed that by all the fools on the Earththe worst fools are religious fools.




... just as a decor ...

No, I do not have to agree this. I do not keep a league table of fools. I find all fools annoying, actually, especially fools who keep insisting upon utilising images to make blunt points, rather than making intelligent arguments.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 02:31
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 and I said that as an atheist fundamentalist.


(...)

Svetonio......you really are a bloody fool.


Maybe but you have to be agreed that by all the fools on the Earththe worst fools are religious fools.




... just as a decor ...

No, I do not have to agree this. I do not keep a league table of fools. I find all fools annoying, actually, especially fools who keep insisting upon utilising images to make blunt points, rather than making intelligent arguments.

I think that the image explains the concept very well. Whoever thinks to be in the right because has seen the absolute Truth in a book or has been teached to it, belongs to that category. It's more frequent within religious people, but not only. Nazis, Stalinists, Yankese exporters of "democracy" a la Bush... when anybody starts using scribbled words instead of neurons we have this kind of fools. They can be more or less dangerous, but I don't see a big difference between a priest burning a witch, a Jihadist burning a temple of another religion and a bigot denying evolution for creationism. The difference is only in the power that they have. American anti-abortists have killed doctors, they are not different from the Mullah Omar. The Chilean fascists who cut off Victor Jara's hands are not different from Cambodian Red Khmers. 
"Religion" derives from Latin and literally means "conformant to a thing" (re=thing ligio=conformant). Nothing divine in this, just a question of "common behaviour". A British historicist, R.H. Tawnee has analyzed it very well in a book about the Protestants: when the people's mindset evolves faster than the "common sense" the gap generates the impulse to revolution. 

Back to prog: a lyricist can take the inspiration from anything. The important is that it's "inspired". That's why even if I'm an atheist I like Neal Morse and I'm not annoyed by his prayers. I think he's sincere and inspired, so it's ok for me. On the other hand, I can't stand with some Black Metal Satanists who only follow a standard without really believing in what they say. 
Everything can find a place in prog music, then it can be good or bad. Just it.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 03:14
I am just glad that not all music has to have lyrics that are about the Occult or about some love story, or relationship breakdown. Religious based lyrics or lyrics about God shine a light in the darkness and despair that lingers in a lot  of Prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 04:09
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 Current total:  24 for, 6 against and a few that I still can't determine. Wacko 
I suspect I'm of those non-determinants since I've not expressed a view on the question. We cannot dictate the subject-matter of any song, we can only choose not to listen, therefore every subject has a place even if they are not welcome to some listeners.

It is never a safe-play to generalise when it comes to music and lyrics, I do listen to and enjoy some music that uses religion as a topic as much as I do some of those that don't - it simply isn't possible for me to like all secular music so I'm going to be hard-pushed to like all christian music, all buddhist music, all wiccian music or all music that praises maharishi-mahesh-yogi-guru. As a post-theist it's all fiction to me so one story is as good as any other if it is told well enough; the problem that "the message" type lyrics are prone to is often good story-telling and good lyric-penning takes second place to putting the message over. This (I suspect) is what people mean by "preachy" ~ when the song becomes a hard-sell for the message, even Roger Waters can over-sell the message in his lyrics. [I could argue that evangelism is by definition and by nature a "hard-sell" of christianity]. It can become off-putting when it tries to sell me something I don't want but if I can ignore the sales-pitch then I can go on to enjoy the presentation, I don't have to take it personally or agree with the sentiments being expressed. I can happily listen to Rob's music without accepting his thoughts and ideas on religion just as I can enjoy (to some extent) hearing Jon Anderson sing without even attempting understand whatever it is he is singing about. Contrarily, I have tried to like Saviour Machine - on paper everything about it is indicative of something I should like - yet I don't.

With regard to Morse, as I said earlier, I've not heard anything he's done since leaving Spock's Beard - you could say I have voted with my wallet though that choice was not wholly made due lyrics I hadn't heard and certainly not by his conversion to evangelism, I was losing interest in SB and Transatlantic prior to that and since that decline continued with Feel Euphoria and Octane I didn't see the need to explore the direction Morse was taking as a solo artist. If he wants to express his religion in music then that's fine by me, I don't have to listen to it if I don't want to. 


Edited by Dean - August 07 2014 at 04:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 08:34
On a side note since the subject was raised, the Salem witch trials is not an example of a religious atrocity per se.  It was a far more complex event in human history involving "medieval witchcraft beliefs, unexplainable (at the time) psychological phenomena, resentment towards women owning land, and, most importantly, severe, obsessive factional disputes."  People used the legal condemnation of a certain lifestyle or practice to frame their neighbors in order to gain an advantage for themselves.  This is nothing unique to religion, as one could point out numerous examples of this sort (the Joseph McCarthy "witch hunt" of the 1950s immediately springs to mind- after all, it was the reason Arthur Miller wrote The Crucible).  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 11:13
IMO, Religions (not religiosity) are dogma based systems, and by this way, in general terms, they work as an obstacle to the evolution of a human being. Just because they restrict the freedom, of think for example. Said that, I prefer that a song lyric would not be about religious pontificating. On the other side I like lyrics about religious myths or epics, as Supper's Ready for example. In any case if the music is good, the religious thing in the lyrics it is not so important to me. About a place of religion in the prog rock or the rock in general terms, I think that  music about religious themes will be restricted its possibilities of diffusion, as in the past it was on the opposite.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 15:19
The Closing Bell: 29 For, 5 Against, 3 Not Determined and 7 Without Comment. After rechecking and rethinking some of the comments, I think the totals are pretty close. The reason I posted this thread, apart from the question about religion in Progressive Music, was to again call attention to the question How important are lyrics to you in Prog Music? It seems that they are important in regard to specific topics, so again I propose to argue that they are important to us and, if anything, perhaps even on some base psychological level. (No pyscho babel here, just using the term as an example). There is a reason that the majority of the music that we enjoy listening to is not purely instrumental. Perhaps we need a human connection to it, if even on some subconscious level, as my old pal Doctor Freud use to say. And no, I'm not as old as him.

Edited by SteveG - August 07 2014 at 15:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2014 at 16:45
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There is a reason that the majority of the music that we enjoy listening to is not purely instrumental.
Sorry but you went too far there. I am not too bad at English, Spanish, Italian, French, Dutch or Catalan, but although lyrics can certainly add value to the music, I would never say that the music I enjoy the most is so because it has lyrics. No way.


Edited by Gerinski - August 08 2014 at 01:20
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